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Thread: Sofnolime 797 get clumped

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    Re: Sofnolime 797 get clumped

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Abbotson  View Original Post
    How hard were you working on the dive?

    Sorb clumps more with dust so sorb from the end of a container may clump more...



    Rod
    This does makes sense. I noticed with a full keg at the start of the season I didn't have much clumping, if any even threw the course training where you would think most likely to find it....being a new RB diver. Now getting to the bottom of the keg, I have noticed clumping after three hours of use when I empty the scrubber. I was thinking the effect of the colder water temps and moisture of breath may contribute, all though I am sure at some level it does, but wasnt sure. The likely hood of dust and smaller crushed particles from the bottom of a keg make all the more sense...

    I remember the youtube video on the scrubber incident....they were taught to remove the clumps and top of the canister with fresh sorb....bet that instructor had a retraining episode!

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    Re: Sofnolime 797 get clumped

    Quote Originally Posted by anarchista  View Original Post
    Soda lime for diving and medicine has a certain moisture content, lime diving is hard, it can contain KOH. Lime medically can not contain KOH, NaOH is used because he does not react with anesthetics.
    In a closed circuit used in anesthesia and dive quickly humidity reaches 100%. After several cycles of ventilation circuit. There are no differences.

    rc greet

    Hello anarchista, my info comes from an anesthesiologist friend who was also a CCR diver. My point, such as it was, is that whether what you say is true-100% humidity as equilibrium after a few cycles in a loop with sodalime-the starting point of humidity is still relevant. A patient in an OR starts out breathing ambient humidity and may continue to inhale a certain amount of ambient air through the imperfect seals of their breathing mask and the breathing gas is minimally compressed and probably not 100% dry. In a CCR, as we descend, we only have the totally arid, very compressed gas in our tanks with which to work in our lungs, which makes it that much more important that the lime has a high enough moisture content with which to start the reaction.

    I would not like to prove the point this way but, I wonder how much prebreathing is required with spherasorb in say, an Arctic environment to start a reaction, as opposed to 797.

    Funny enough, I was never taught to prebreathe my unit, probably because the moisture content of diving sorb is high enough that it's not necessary, even during a rapid descent with new DIVING sorb in cold water.

    In other words, why is there sorb which is recommended for diving and sorb which is for recommended for anesthesiology? -Andy
    Last edited by silent running; 24th October 2011 at 08:42.

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    Re: Sofnolime 797 get clumped

    Quote Originally Posted by silent running  View Original Post
    In other words, why is there sorb which is recommended for diving and sorb which is for recommended for anesthesiology?
    To make more money?
    Apart from that there are very different market segments and thus different demand scenarios.. So for a manufacturer of anesthesia lime it might just not be attractive to go through testing and certification processes for the very small market of diving lime when they just live fine with their existing customers being mostly big hospitals with the repective turnover and volume.. A bit similar like oxygen cells for diving applications.. Not too interesting as a market for a manufactuerer who has a much bigger market in other applications, specially looking at the liability side coming along with it..
    Then of course a diving for exact those reasons is much more expensive as the testing an dliability etc. has to be spread to a much smaller circle of clients.. But have a look at Intersorb/Spherasorb .. they just made the step from anaesthesia lime to approved and tested diving lime.. If you look at the specs it is the exact same stuff.. just then with certificate to be ok to dive with.. and a different price tag along with it...

  4. #34
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    Re: ~ 70 dives later, new question

    Quote Originally Posted by matthewoutram  View Original Post
    I see this happen when over-packed.

    Matt.
    Yes, but I always pack to the limit. But never seen it baked together to this extend.
    I only had the time to do one 70 minute dive since my last scrubber change.
    Carefully checked and scratched with my finger at the sorb bottom, the solid layer is around 10-15 mm thick after this dive.

    Scotty

  5. #35
    RBW Member anarchista is an unknown quantity at this point anarchista's Avatar
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    Re: Sofnolime 797 get clumped

    Quote Originally Posted by silent running  View Original Post
    Hello anarchista, my info comes from an anesthesiologist friend who was also a CCR diver. My point, such as it was, is that whether what you say is true-100% humidity as equilibrium after a few cycles in a loop with sodalime-the starting point of humidity is still relevant. A patient in an OR starts out breathing ambient humidity and may continue to inhale a certain amount of ambient air through the imperfect seals of their breathing mask and the breathing gas is minimally compressed and probably not 100% dry. In a CCR, as we descend, we only have the totally arid, very compressed gas in our tanks with which to work in our lungs, which makes it that much more important that the lime has a high enough moisture content with which to start the reaction.

    I would not like to prove the point this way but, I wonder how much prebreathing is required with spherasorb in say, an Arctic environment to start a reaction, as opposed to 797.

    Funny enough, I was never taught to prebreathe my unit, probably because the moisture content of diving sorb is high enough that it's not necessary, even during a rapid descent with new DIVING sorb in cold water.

    In other words, why is there sorb which is recommended for diving and sorb which is for recommended for anesthesiology?
    My information comes from Molecular, a Polish producer of soda lime, or other manufacturers, eg Ukraine. Soda lime contains the right amount of water bound in the polymer (Molecular). Lime should not be stored in the sun. In tightly closed container without the sun.
    Humidity in closed circulation is 100% relative humidity. In addition, the amount of water vapor is relatively constant, even under high pressure used in diving, this follows from properties of water vapor in the gas. The pressure increase does not cause the amount of water in this form. This is basic physiology of diving and chemistry.
    In Poland, many divers use Molecular Medical soda lime for diving. It is many times better than soda lime that was produced in Poland.

    rc greet

  6. #36
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    Re: Sofnolime 797 get clumped

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrogenius  View Original Post
    To make more money?
    Apart from that there are very different market segments and thus different demand scenarios.. So for a manufacturer of anesthesia lime it might just not be attractive to go through testing and certification processes for the very small market of diving lime when they just live fine with their existing customers being mostly big hospitals with the repective turnover and volume.. A bit similar like oxygen cells for diving applications.. Not too interesting as a market for a manufactuerer who has a much bigger market in other applications, specially looking at the liability side coming along with it..
    Then of course a diving for exact those reasons is much more expensive as the testing an dliability etc. has to be spread to a much smaller circle of clients.. But have a look at Intersorb/Spherasorb .. they just made the step from anaesthesia lime to approved and tested diving lime.. If you look at the specs it is the exact same stuff.. just then with certificate to be ok to dive with.. and a different price tag along with it...
    Hello Ng, so which is more expensive, the Sphera dive sorb or the medical one? And just because Spherasorb's formula is the same for medical and diving applications, doesn't mean it has the same specs/moisture content as 797 or Sodasorb 6-12. Has anybody done a side by side comparison of Spherasorb specs and Molecular products? How big are the granules? The breathing rate and gas density for a person under anesthesia breathing at 1 atmosphere in a temperature controlled hospital is very different than a working CCR diver at 10 ata breathing trimix in 45F water. And if I'm not mistaken, isn't anesthesia administered via a semi-closed loop? Those are some very big differences in the two applications, so it seems hard to believe they are inconsequential... -Andy

  7. #37
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    Re: Sofnolime 797 get clumped

    Quote Originally Posted by silent running  View Original Post
    Hello Ng, so which is more expensive, the Sphera dive sorb or the medical one? And just because Spherasorb's formula is the same for medical and diving applications, doesn't mean it has the same specs/moisture content as 797 or Sodasorb 6-12. Has anybody done a side by side comparison of Spherasorb specs and Molecular products? How big are the granules? The breathing rate and gas density for a person under anesthesia breathing at 1 atmosphere in a temperature controlled hospital is very different than a working CCR diver at 10 ata breathing trimix in 45F water. And if I'm not mistaken, isn't anesthesia administered via a semi-closed loop? Those are some very big differences in the two applications, so it seems hard to believe they are inconsequential... -Andy
    Diving lime is more expensive than medical, already stated the differences are in the medical NaOH addition. In dive KOH in larger quantities. This has its advantages and disadvantages. corresponding graphs of research online I put lime in my messages.
    Comparisons of products are confidential and are the property of which it has done so in spite of having such information does not publish them on the forum.
    A person under anesthesia consumes little oxygen and of low ventilation. This is the main difference in working conditions and diving medical lime. Charts absorption changes as a function of ventilation is also in my messages.

    rc greet

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    Re: Sofnolime 797 get clumped

    Quote Originally Posted by silent running  View Original Post
    Hello Ng, so which is more expensive, the Sphera dive sorb or the medical one?
    The Sphera dive sorb is more expensive, however there is not that much difference so comparing different suppliers you could have also the medical more expensive with supplier A than the diving from supplier B..
    But there is a great difference for the intersorb, however the diving intersorb comes with different granules size though..

    Quote Originally Posted by silent running  View Original Post
    And just because Spherasorb's formula is the same for medical and diving applications, doesn't mean it has the same specs/moisture content as 797 or Sodasorb 6-12.
    No of course not, I never said that..
    But the specs of Sphera-medical-sorb is the same as the specs of Sphera-Dive-sorb, which is showing to my opinion that the Sphera/Intersorb generally is ok to dive, just not tested..

  9. #39
    RBW Member anarchista is an unknown quantity at this point anarchista's Avatar
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    Re: Sofnolime 797 get clumped

    Quote Originally Posted by silent running  View Original Post
    Those are some very big differences in the two applications, so it seems hard to believe they are inconsequential...
    Do you know such a reaction, that provides water to the circuit?
    Ca(OH)2 + CO2 -> CaCO3 + H2O

    It should know the basics.
    http://www.rebreatherworld.com/attac...&d=1302770716t

    rc greet
    Last edited by anarchista; 25th October 2011 at 13:14.

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    Re: Sofnolime 797 get clumped

    Quote Originally Posted by anarchista  View Original Post
    Do you know such a reaction, that provides water to the circuit?
    Ca(OH)2 + CO2 -> CaCO3 + H2O

    It should know the basics.
    http://www.rebreatherworld.com/attac...&d=1302770716t

    rc greet

    Yes anarchista, most if us know the reaction between exhaled CO2 and sorb produces water, something I believe is taught in all beginning RB classes, which for me was back in 98'. I still don't think all the differences between something like 797 and Spherasorb's diving product, are clear. Your graph attachment is in Polish, so I don't know what I'm looking at, nor could I find any other links in your previous posts... -Andy

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