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Thread: 2 Questions about learning / starting with rebs

  1. #11
    RBW Member stuey will become famous soon enough stuey will become famous soon enough stuey will become famous soon enough stuey's Avatar
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    Re: 2 Questions about learning / starting with rebs

    Hi

    You have to be advanced EANX certified as a prerequisite to do an entry level CCR course, as someone suggested I would go one step further and do deco precedures, I wouldn't think you would need to purchase a full OC tech setup to do the course as most centres will hire you the gear, or maybe you could borrow it from someone. If you carry on and do CCR tech diving you'll almost certainly need most of the OC stuff anyway, perhaps with the exception of twins, but they are good for banking mix.

    Rgds

    Stuey

  2. #12

    Re: 2 Questions about learning / starting with rebs

    Thank you all for your replies and suggestions on reading material. I will read them all :) If i understood you guys correctly than the general advice on question Nr.2 would be:


    - you can skip oc training if you are certain you will do most of your dives on ccr anyway.

    - but in critical situations it is necessary to feel comfortable on OC. That means that continuos bailout training is necessary and that it would be even better to build up good fundamentals on OC.

    - thats why it is advisable to do at least Adv. Nitrox and deco procedures on oc before getting into rebreathers (could be done with rental equipment)

    - i am wrong about thinking that once i'd finish the training on my unit of choice, i couldreduce the risk caused by my inexperince by doing shallow/conservative diving.

    Is that so far paraphrased correctly ?


    Quote Originally Posted by stuey  View Original Post
    If you carry on and do CCR tech diving you'll almost certainly need most of the OC stuff anyway, perhaps with the exception of twins, but they are good for banking mix.
    Now this is the point where my lack of knowledge shines brightly. I am aware that no matter what choice i make (oc vs. cc) i will need my drysuit, computer, lamps, stages + regulators, reels and so forth. But i always thought that you don't need [Twins,wing,backplate,harness,regulators] if you own a rebreather, as those parts are already built in. Did i get that wrong?

  3. #13
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    Re: 2 Questions about learning / starting with rebs

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueVoid  View Original Post

    - thats why it is advisable to do at least Adv. Nitrox and deco procedures on oc before getting into rebreathers (could be done with rental equipment)
    I would recommend Advanced Recreational Trimix and Deep diver combined (IANTD's version of Advanced Nitrox and Deco) on OC first as it gives you mix training right off the bat, which will come in handy on your CCR.

    One thing you may have noticed is that many people who advocate going straight to CCR have no OC tech training themselves :)

    However, I think its a nice to have, not an essential prerequisite.

    CCR diving is quite different than OC - even when you bailout. There are philosophies and mindsets for OC bailout emerging that are quite hard for died in the wool OC divers to accept. In an attempt to explain what I mean - If you approach your bailout planning, gas choice and deco as you would on an OC tech dive, youll likely be taking sub optimal gasses in some instances, spending more time in the water than necessary and carrying too much gas. Check out Peter Sotis' advanced planning class to see what I mean.

    IMO - OC tech is planned to dive and use the gas, CCR OC bailout is planned to survive and get out as fast as possible with the minimal amount of deco because you are in trouble - especially relevant if its physiological and not just equipment related.

    With this in mind - moving straight to CCR seems more sensible. If nothing else youll save time, money and effort. Dialing in an OC DIR rig and developing the associated trim is a big deal. Subsequently transitioning all that to CCR can be an ordeal. The center of gravity and how you configure your harness and positioning of bailout is much, much different than OC. Your choice of fins and the decision to sidemount bailout or not will send you down a different path in pursuit of a different holy grail to the DIR one.

    I was an OC tech instructor prior to moving to CCR and my whole approach and focus had to change. It probably took twice as long as would for someone who had not had DIR drilled into their head. Look at my Avatar for example, that pic was taken in my early days of CCR diving. Im wearing a single pice DIR harness and carrying my bailout like an OC tech diver. All wrong, wrong, wrong! I used to laugh at buddies on CCR who struggled clipping their stages to bungees and clipping to some butt plate they couldnt reach. I wondered why they wore pool fins or cheap light plastic ones and not my coveted Jet fins. I was bemused as to why they wore dry suits in the middle of July in 80% humidity. Now I know all too well. The trim, weighting, balance and execution is all different to OC.

    Good luck whichever you choose.
    Last edited by ChrisBrown; 24th November 2010 at 13:09.

  4. #14
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    Re: 2 Questions about learning / starting with rebs

    Quote Originally Posted by Drmike  View Original Post
    couldnt disagree with you more.

    when the sh1t hits the fan on a 'technical' ccr dive your now doing a technical oc dive - yould better be comfortable/practiced at that.
    Which is surely why my MOD1 combined with Advanced Rec Trimix was harder than a straight MOD1 course - I had to learn and demonstrate the that I could safely do the dives both closed circuit and on open circuit bailout. Some dives were spent mainly open circuit, in fact.

    I am sure *all* rebreather agencies teach the necessary OC bailout skills without having to waste time and money learning OC skills such as twinset valve drills that will never be used diving CC.

    Wouldn't disagree that OC skills are vital, but you can learn these just as well on an rebreather course as you can doing doing the open circuit equivalent.

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    Re: 2 Questions about learning / starting with rebs

    Hi,
    I like your approach. First of all, it'd be an enormous benefit to you if you could find a few ccr divers close to you. So ask around and go for a try out with an instructor as soon as you feel ready.
    As said above, prior to go ccr you'll have to take a few classes such as Nitrox and Adv. Nitrox. You could also benefit from deco procedures and accelerated deco. That's for theory and comprehension of PO2 which is the main reason to dive a ccr.
    Now concerning your skills and comfort in the water, I'd advice you to take your Nitrox classes combined with a Sidemount class as opposed to going down the DIR route. [Guys, don't shoot me just yet, here me out first.] Of course there's nothing wrong with DIR by itself but my opinion is that Sidemount gives more appropriate foundations as far as aquaticity, buoyancy and underwater tank handling are concerned for ccr diving in general and surely when it comes to bailing out OC.
    Also, that way you will also continue to use your SM equipement and you won't have a set of double to get rid off when you go into ccr diving.

    Hope this helps
    Best
    Philippe

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    Re: 2 Questions about learning / starting with rebs

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Calamity  View Original Post
    Wouldn't disagree that OC skills are vital, but you can learn these just as well on an rebreather course as you can doing doing the open circuit equivalent.
    I suspect the difference is if you learned to do your deco stops/gas switches OC style, you put in a lot of time doing it and it becomes 2nd nature. For a lot of ccr divers the last time they practised a bailout run was probably about 3 hours before they passed their CCR course ;)

    My own personal wierd prejudice is that I like to know folks have put some time in reinforcing skills, whether that be by OC time, or by doing regular bailout runs.

    ps. welcome back C.C., shame its yellow though :P

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    Re: 2 Questions about learning / starting with rebs

    Quote Originally Posted by EBT  View Original Post
    I suspect the difference is if you learned to do your deco stops/gas switches OC style, you put in a lot of time doing it and it becomes 2nd nature. For a lot of ccr divers the last time they practised a bailout run was probably about 3 hours before they passed their CCR course ;)

    My own personal wierd prejudice is that I like to know folks have put some time in reinforcing skills, whether that be by OC time, or by doing regular bailout runs.

    ps. welcome back C.C., shame its yellow though :P
    Thanks!

    You are not alone with your wierd prejudice - my buddy and I both instruct OC so we are well used to doing lots of drills. The general aim is to practice a skill per dive. I had to do a "for real" lift of an unconscious OC diver a few weeks ago and the value of regular practice became really clear i.e. you don't screw it up when the adrenaline is flowing hard.

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    Re: 2 Questions about learning / starting with rebs

    As someone who did exactly what you're inquiring about, if I could go back I might do things differently. If I were you, I would do what everyone has already suggested: stick to OC for a bit while you take advanced nitrox/deco procedures and log some deeper dives, then reconsider whether your diving will really benefit from using a rebreather, or whether OC will suffice. They are super fun, and I have no regrets about going to the dark side, but they are time consuming and stupid expensive to own and maintain. I'm not of the school that says you can only use a rebreather if you absolutely need to, but it's easy to underestimate not only the initial expense and time to become proficient, but the ongoing expenses of running a unit. I think it's also easy to underestimate what you'll be able to do with a set of doubles without the OC tech experience, and probably the majority of the dives that are made on CCR could be made on open circuit, albeit with less comfort and significantly less coolness . All that said, I love diving closed circuit, and while going straight to CCR while skipping OC tech seemed to save a few bucks and a few years, I'm sure the situational awareness gained wouldn't have hurt at all.

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    Re: 2 Questions about learning / starting with rebs

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris at Silent World  View Original Post
    ...Im wearing a single pice DIR harness and carrying my bailout like an OC tech diver. All wrong, wrong, wrong! I used to laugh at buddies on CCR who struggled clipping their stages to bungees and clipping to some butt plate they couldnt reach. I wondered why they wore pool fins or cheap light plastic ones and not my coveted Jet fins....
    Hey, I resemble that remark!

    I still use a DIR harness and carry all my bailout tanks on the left, just like OC. And I still love my turtles. You can't always teach new tricks to the the old salty dog, you know.

    (but maybe someday...)

  10. #20
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    Re: 2 Questions about learning / starting with rebs

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris at Silent World  View Original Post
    One thing you may have noticed is that many people who advocate going straight to CCR have no OC tech training themselves :)
    Not all. I went up through OC full trimix. Then went to CCR. If I had to do it over again, I would have skipped out on all of the OC tech classes, and just do them on CCR.

    As Chris pointed out, trim, buoyancy, gear configuration - pretty much the heart of diving are all different on CCR. All the skills I learned in my OC tx class, I had to unlearn when I went to CCR. I actually consider it a waste of money. (Although I do still use a hog harness Chris )

    I hear the argument about building the skill of gas swapping on oc classes. First I would submit that bailing out is different than a planned gas swap to accelerate deco. One is done under calm circumstances with protocols to ensure you are breathing the correct gas. The other is an emergency situation, and done under 'stress' and includes the additional skill of closing the dsv. Secondly - proper bailing out should be taught in mod 1, and practiced regularly after the class. Shame on the instructor who doesn't teach it to the point where there student has an adequate skill set prior to going out on their own.

    I would say more OC training and experience could actually make the transition to CCR harder. It's more muscle memory you need to unlearn. When I took my CCR mod 1, I had a few hundred dives. The person I took my mod 1 with had over 1000 cave dives. She had a much harder time than I did making the transition.

    The op says he has 100 dives. That should be more than enough to demonstrate competence and comfort in the water. With 100 dives, anyone should be able to do just fine in a properly taught CCR class.

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