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Thread: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by jmw  View Original Post
    This doesn't add up to me. If I were carrying an aluminum 80 cylinder, which is the gas required for a safe exit and it becomes unusable, I'm dead. If I am carry 2 40's rather than an 80 and one fails I'm still dead. In the above case do I not have a greater chance of having a failure resulting in inefficient gas to exit the cave using two aluminum 40's rather than one 80? I may be overlooking something...

    To me, true redundantcy would be to carry 2 80's as bailout if 80cuft of gas was needed to exit the cave at max penetration.
    if you solo diving then yes,

    if you team diving you have a gas supply thats breathable while you get your teams gas. it may well be the failed supply is a fixable problem in water, swap regs etc now you have time to fix it, the only catastrophic loss i could not deal with in water would be a tank neck o-ring failure, in over 5,000 dives i only sore them fiz. take a few basic tool and all is manageable

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    I am really not liking to post among all this experience, However. I have seen it posted before and will look up the quote if need be (of which seemed to be acceptable). Along these lines.....When diving CCR depend only on yourself. If this philosophy is true then why plan a dive that could inevitably be dependent upon a buddy or stages? I would think too plan ALL dives as if you are solo (barring military excersices). I think.

    Curious,
    Hunter

    P.S. Am I among the unfortunates that cannot access this video enlightenment....? (seems to be an endless loop of trying to load, syndrome)
    Last edited by 19Hunter68; 10th November 2010 at 05:52.

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by jmw  View Original Post
    To me, true redundantcy would be to carry 2 80's as bailout if 80cuft of gas was needed to exit the cave at max penetration.
    That's roughly what I do. I calculate what bailout I need then I add on another bottle. If I need one 80 to exit then I take two, if I need two then I take three, etc. The main thing that's going to push me off the loop is a CO2 hit and if that happens then calculated bailout is blown out the water. The extra bottle is to deal with getting back to a state where I can begin an exit. Having the extra gas doesn't hurt either.

    Personally, I'd much rather have my own gas than shared.

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    Hi

    I always have two tanks when I go on my CCR. But unlike Lamar explaination, my main tank is my left one and I'm curious why he take the right one to be is main.

    On my left tank, I have a apek dst 1 stage. that allow me to have my hoses pointing up. as I sidemount my BO the first stage is under my left armpit. hose are going up on my left shoulder, behind my neck and up on my right shoulder. Second stage is bungee in my neck like Lamar explain and my dry suit is connected whit the suit QC pointing up. on that configuration, I don't have any of my hose passing in the front of my buddy, it's all in a low profil hose routing. Other benefit include that if I breack my neck bungee of my sidemount, the tank will be hold my the hose during the time I can fix it and will not drop to the floor.

    It also really practicle in case of BO giving. If I do give or drop a BO it will free my right side (my o2 side) giving more space and flexibility.

    If someone can ask Lamar (or other experience cave explorer) why they take right tank as main, I will be really interested.

    Etienne

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    I am a two cylinder BO diver also... aside from having adequate bailout for myself and my buddy, I do keep the RH cylinder as my own as well.

    Depending on the dive profile, the RH cylinder feeds my suit inflation whereas my wing feeds off the LH side, hence I could give up my LH tank easier...

    I wrote a small article on bailout gas management in caves here.. Rebreather Gas Management vs The Rule of Thirds | Cave Divers Association of Australia
    It was difficult to write as there were many cave scenarios running through my head and what was good for one cave, was inadequate for others... so...
    I believe the crux of the CCR bailout plan is knowing the cave layout BEFORE entering the water... then set up your exit strategy using all the above comments, it is very difficult to find a "one solution fits all scenarios"..

    In an exploration environment, step by step setup will build the bailout plan required...

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    This is an excellent thread., I really like what is coming out. Common sense but very often the obvious needs to be pointed out. I'm going to add a concern of mine (is it a real or percieved risk? as GI3 pointed out to me many years ago) - we are not using our OC / BO regulators as much as we did when we were playing these games on OC. Like most mechanical things, they work better when they get used often. We may occasionally take a few breaths from the OC slugs as part of the S-drills but they never really do any hard work until there is a problem - not the right time to discover that a seat is on its way out or something else is not 100% with the rig (see the thread about face plates of second stages falling off in the tunnels of Badgat).

    A couple of observations / thoughts then to add to this :

    I take my "deep" BO regulators for a splash in OC side mount mode every now and then, just to get them to work for bit. I don't do it as often as I should though. I actually never use my OC O2 or 50/15 rigs - this needs to change

    The Bale Out regs need to be the best you can afford - I suspect that often, as a grudge purchace, they could be cheaper rigs (much like the mindset of an OW sport diver's octo) - when the sh#t hits the fan, you want the best pulling you out of the dwang.

    Second stages that are finger tight on the hoses so they can be swapped easily if needed (keep the odd Poseidon out of the mix ) as well as the willingness and ability to swap out regulators underwater.

    My 2 cents

    P2

  7. #17
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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    Recently Bruno Fagundes and Laszlo Mocsary (both very experienced CCR divers) on a 122m open water dive reported that they (yeap both...) quickly lost the O2 onboard supply due an OPV leak when maximum depth was reached.

    The dive did not was aborted and completed on the loop cuz they plumbed the O2 offboard carried for bailout and deco scenario.

    I believe that in most of shallow dives (normoxic one) it may be a rare occurence (but feasible), on depth ones I think it's a real concern, mainly cuz a 3 liters tank can be totally empty before you are able to evaluate a BOOM scenario.

    The bailout setup that allowed they completed the entire dive on manual flight.


    Quote Originally Posted by apitkin  View Original Post
    Playing devil's advocate here:

    A redundant oxygen supply mitigates only one failure - the failure of the onboard oxygen. I suspect this is a rare occurrence. If it does happen, it can be managed by going SCR or bailing out to OC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Bowen  View Original Post
    Not positive exactly what you are saying here?

    Redundant oxygen on a cave Ccr is for oxygen failure way back in a cave. Yes you can go to semi closed, but a simple redundant o2 cylinder in place of the original small back mounted diluent would probably become a better option.

    Yes, stage gas can be recovered on the exit, but these may be several thousand feet away.
    Last edited by RogerioWagner; 11th November 2010 at 14:16.

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by jdz  View Original Post
    In an exploration environment, step by step setup will build the bailout plan required...
    well said

    while I am by no means an expert caver, I can see tremendous importance in doing progressive penetrations leading up to a big push, and dropping stages/bailout along the way...just as you would for a big OC push. Considering what CCRs enable us to do, the reality is that it is near impossible to carry enough OC bailout in and out.

  9. #19

    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    Well this has turned into a very good discussion. Hopefully I can add a little to it.

    Regarding O2 I follow the redundent O2 school of thought. I adjust the on board O2 cylinder size depending on the type of dive. Smaller dives will have two 3L cylinders. This gives me a back up and enough O2 for a bailout to OC situation. Longer and/or deeper dives will move up to 7L or bigger cylinders to match the dive plan.

    Diluent/Bailout I plan a SAC of 1.0. This is roughly double my normal SAC. I also carry double the gas required to get me out. I carry double the gas to handle an OOA as well as my own situation. This also gives a big reserve in case of a CO2 hit and the amount of gas that goes with it.

    I have kept the left side cylinders set up for me and my right side set up for someone else. I don't know why Lamar does it like he does, I do it this way becuase it keeps my set up the same between my OC and CCR set ups.

    Regarding OW diving I keep the same set up as I do with over heads and this is why. I was on a recreational NDL dive on a shallow wreck. Due to our primary boat having a break down we were moved to a cattle boat and a cattle boat dive site. While on a deep stop a diver from another boat came up our line OOA. When the diver reached me he promptly pulled my DSV from my mouth in an attempt to get an air source. I promptly went to practiced skills and handed off my bailout regulator. The problem was that I had only one source of OC gas with a quickly flooding loop above my head. It turned out OK after I got the diver off me by giving him a reg and getting the loop cleared. Point is for me to have two sources of bailout always.

    Another point that I have found interesting is my SAC rate when I have been doing a lot of CCR diving. It will jump up a point or two when until I adjust back to OC. I now make it a point to dive OC on a more regular basis. A buddy, that dives CCR for the most part all the time, recently was forced back to OC for a dive trip. The first few dives were an adjustment and his SAC was a bit off. After a week of diving he got dialed in and everything went smooth. That may be something that we all need to consider and put some time into keeping the OC skills dialed in. I know that I get rusty rather quickly and need time to adjust. When bailing out due to a real issue is not the time I want to be getting dialed back in again to OC.

    Bobby

  10. #20
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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    I didn't completely agree with his methodology either, until I watched his video. We, my dive buddy and I, have access to our on board gas OC. Our supply is 30 cf (steel) not 40, but pumped up? Point is, that without thinking about it we had the same configuration. The Optima as well as most of the units out there use smaller bottles for the breathers with no access OC to them.

    So Lamar's left side 40 is equivalent to our on board supply with access to it OC. (Necklaced to our neck) We do carry an 80 then in the cave, a 40 just doesn't do it for me. BTW, there are ways around broken HP hoses, (Larger button gauges, though they are harder to read.) Frankly, once I am on the bailout I either have enough gas or not, so minute by minute pressure monitoring isn't the issue at that time.

    I also don't like hanging anything on my right side. My light is there, my MCCR controls are there, etc.

    Dale

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