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Thread: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

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    Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    Diverite owner, Lamar Hires speaks about CCR Cave bailout




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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    Excellent!!!

    Thanks Curt.

    It is good to see those such as Lamar, that carry the voices that are heard, advocating redundent and more CCR bailout. Eventually this will become standard in cave diving just as rules of thirds did with OC cave diving.

    In time this will also bleed over to OW CCR diving. IMHO this is a solid step towards safer practices for diving CCR's.

    One opinion to add is to always have both bailout cylinders on. This goes a long way towards knowing that there is a working redundent gas supply. I have also had a hp hose blow during a dive. Because the system was charged I did not find it out at a time when I was dealing with another problem, such as wanting to bailout. It was not an issue and the only needed response was to shut down the offending cylinder and call the dive.

    Bobby

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    Great! Thank you.

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    Thanks for putting this video up Curt.

    I believe that this was long overdue topic in the overhead environment world of CCR diving.

    I'd that Lamar pointed out that his "proper bailout" philosophy was specific to overhead diving.

    A lot of cave systems (not all) have one way to get in and one way out. Systems like this allow cave divers to drop deco gasses off at their MOD location so they are there upon exit.

    This method is a lot different then virtual overhead diving (deco ceiling) in OW where tech divers need to carry deco gases throughout the entire dive just in case they need to ascend from a worse case scenario such as the anchor line not being there.

    I like Lamars philosophy of redundant BO in overhead enviornments. I wish he would of added building SAC rate into his redundancy.

    I feel that a good practice is not to exceed a distance od 2/3's of your BO gas. This is just like thirds on O.C.. If a CCR diver experiences a problem where the diver needs to bailout at maximum distance/time, the diver can still have an additional third for reserve.

    Obviously this requires a little more math but not you can establish a reliable BO turn point on the dive.

    Here is an example:

    A CCR Diver wants to carry 80 cuft of gas into a cave:

    The Cave is 99ft deep

    The Diver has a working SAC in cuft/min rate of .7 (don't anyone dare start to hijack this thread with RMV vs. SAC)

    Breaking it down.

    80cuft is approx 37.5 PSI per cuft
    99ft = 4 ATA
    SAC of .7 at depth is 2.8cuft/min
    2/3 of 80cuft is 53cuft

    53cuft/2.8cuft per minute at depth = 19min

    This diver should turn the dive at 19min to ensure enough BO for a catastrophic failure.

    The Problem:
    This is a reality check. Catastrophic failures can happen and if we are talking about an Overhead BO philosophy to live by, something detailed like this is critical.

    INMHO CCR divers are not planning enough BO whether it's for Cave or OW. I see it day in and day out and it concerns me.

    If you can sling or sidemount a 40cuft cylinder, an 80cuft cylinder is no big deal.

    I would love to here other thoughts on this. Maybe RBW can come together with a BO philosophy that everyone can live by.

    I would like to thank Lamar and Curt again for putting this video up and to all RBW members that are taking the time to read this and add constructive feedback.

    Cheers

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by bobby  View Original Post

    In time this will also bleed over to OW CCR diving. IMHO this is a solid step towards safer practices for diving CCR's.
    Thanks Curt! Common sense when diving cave CCR I'd say. Let's indeed hope that this example will be followed by ow CCR divers..

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    As a pioneer in cave exploration, Lamar delivers a powerful message for ccr cave bailout configurations.

    Many other experienced ccr cave explorers, such as Brett Hemphill agree with the wisdom Lamar delivers and also adds redundant oxygen cylinders to the equation.

    While proper OC bailout is a must, redundant oxygen supply is also very important. Many extreme ccr cave exploration dives rack up substancial decompression obligations, many of which would become almost impossible with the loss of a ccr.

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Bowen  View Original Post
    Many other experienced ccr cave explorers, such as Brett Hemphill agree with the wisdom Lamar delivers and also adds redundant oxygen cylinders to the equation.

    While proper OC bailout is a must, redundant oxygen supply is also very important. Many extreme ccr cave exploration dives rack up substancial decompression obligations, many of which would become almost impossible with the loss of a ccr.
    Playing devil's advocate here:

    A redundant oxygen supply mitigates only one failure - the failure of the onboard oxygen. I suspect this is a rare occurrence. If it does happen, it can be managed by going SCR or bailing out to OC.

    Full OC bailout deals with any failure, including loss of the primary oxygen supply. If you've decided you're not going to have full OC bailout, which will probably include 100% oxygen, then a redundant oxygen supply might become more important. If you have the facility to plug your deco gases (intermediate and oxygen) into the loop, then it starts looking like a non-event.

    For extreme exposures, there may be other problems (such as thermal) with decompressing on OC bailout, so a staged bailout rebreather may be the best way to plan those dives.

    Just my thoughts. Brett's heard them and we agree to disagree!

    Andy

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    Not positive exactly what you are saying here?

    Redundant oxygen on a cave Ccr is for oxygen failure way back in a cave. Yes you can go to semi closed, but a simple redundant o2 cylinder in place of the original small back mounted diluent would probably become a better option.

    Yes, stage gas can be recovered on the exit, but these may be several thousand feet away.



    Quote Originally Posted by apitkin  View Original Post
    Playing devil's advocate here:

    A redundant oxygen supply mitigates only one failure - the failure of the onboard oxygen. I suspect this is a rare occurrence. If it does happen, it can be managed by going SCR or bailing out to OC.

    Full OC bailout deals with any failure, including loss of the primary oxygen supply. If you've decided you're not going to have full OC bailout, which will probably include 100% oxygen, then a redundant oxygen supply might become more important. If you have the facility to plug your deco gases (intermediate and oxygen) into the loop, then it starts looking like a non-event.

    For extreme exposures, there may be other problems (such as thermal) with decompressing on OC bailout, so a staged bailout rebreather may be the best way to plan those dives.

    Just my thoughts. Brett's heard them and we agree to disagree!

    Andy

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    curt thanks for posting the videos from the event.

    The need for redundant bailout gas is essential not only in overhead environments in my opinion. On many an OC dive I have experienced problems with stage bottle failure normally resolvable in water but here I had back gas to breath while the problems were dealt with. If you experience a loop failure and then have a problem with deep/bottom bailout you got a much bigger problem, when we conducted our exploration dives in Song Hong we used multiple bottom bailouts and additional staged gas, admittedly this was using a team gas sharing concept as we would have had to carry 22 bottles otherwise.

    this is another reason i often dive larger volume on-board tanks to reduce the need for multiple stages, streamlining the rig and making it much easier to swim.

    Thanks for sharing

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    Re: Lamar Hires speaks on CCR Cave Bailout

    This doesn't add up to me. If I were carrying an aluminum 80 cylinder, which is the gas required for a safe exit and it becomes unusable, I'm dead. If I am carry 2 40's rather than an 80 and one fails I'm still dead. In the above case do I not have a greater chance of having a failure resulting in inefficient gas to exit the cave using two aluminum 40's rather than one 80? I may be overlooking something...

    To me, true redundantcy would be to carry 2 80's as bailout if 80cuft of gas was needed to exit the cave at max penetration.

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