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Thread: Dead in 7 Minutes - The Importance of a Continuous Flow Oxygen Orifice

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    Re: Dead in 7 Minutes - The Importance of a Continuous Flow Oxygen Orifice

    Quote Originally Posted by bgpartri  View Original Post
    This is a good suggestion. From avionics research it is clear that the brain interprets shapes quicker than numbers. We'll put it on the list.

    You still need to get at the numbers though for calibration and troubleshooting. That will have to be easily available.

    Bruce
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    Re: Dead in 7 Minutes - The Importance of a Continuous Flow Oxygen Orifice

    Most HUds have color coded way of transmitting PPO2 information -green good, orange OK, red bad.
    I monitor my HUD constantly and subconsciously, while checking my handsets periodically.
    For me, there is no difference if I dive mCCR or eCCR, same procedure.

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    Re: Dead in 7 Minutes - The Importance of a Continuous Flow Oxygen Orifice

    Quote Originally Posted by lof  View Original Post
    Most HUds have color coded way of transmitting PPO2 information -green good, orange OK, red bad.
    I monitor my HUD constantly and subconsciously, while checking my handsets periodically.
    For me, there is no difference if I dive mCCR or eCCR, same procedure.
    Ditto.... mCCR should not be an excuse for not having to pay attention...

    Dive an eCCR and fly it manual above the set point... Then Bi)#$* slap yourself everytime that you let your solenoid fire...

    M

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    Re: Dead in 7 Minutes - The Importance of a Continuous Flow Oxygen Orifice

    Quote Originally Posted by diverklondike  View Original Post
    Ditto.... mCCR should not be an excuse for not having to pay attention...

    Dive an eCCR and fly it manual above the set point... Then Bi)#$* slap yourself everytime that you let your solenoid fire...

    M
    I totally agree.


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    Re: Dead in 7 Minutes - The Importance of a Continuous Flow Oxygen Orifice

    Quote Originally Posted by lof  View Original Post
    Most HUds have color coded way of transmitting PPO2 information -green good, orange OK, red bad.
    I monitor my HUD constantly and subconsciously, while checking my handsets periodically.
    For me, there is no difference if I dive mCCR or eCCR, same procedure.
    That's fine, but we're talking about analog rather than (or in addition to) digital representation of the PO2 on the wrist display (Predator) to give information at a quick glance.

    Green is good, but are you near the top or bottom of the range? How close are the sensors reading to each other? This information can be interpreted more rapidly with an analog display than with a digital one. It's not about the color, although as Jason mentioned color cues can be incorporated to make it more effective.

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    Re: Dead in 7 Minutes - The Importance of a Continuous Flow Oxygen Orifice

    Quote Originally Posted by apitkin  View Original Post
    Green is good, but are you near the top or bottom of the range? How close are the sensors reading to each other? This information can be interpreted more rapidly with an analog display than with a digital one. It's not about the color, although as Jason mentioned color cues can be incorporated to make it more effective.
    Yes, HUD aside (My older breathers don't have them) I am more interested in a graphic representation of Po2 per sensor in place of (or better yet, in addition to) analog representation.

    I think this is an interesting question, as of course, I think in color, but had not even considered the color blind folks out there. I will say that even a short horizontal scale, such as the X-link, with unlabeled reference marks was enough to give me the quick glance information I needed. It's not perfect, as the best combination is the graphic, with the numbers there to back it up, and some ability to change the reference marks (which you can't do with an X-link). I think it would be interesting to come up with some suggestions and hash out the details here- might help Bruce with the early design scheme, and already have a body of opinion on what worked best. Space is always limited on these screens, and I know Bruce likes to keep the graphics larger for the slightly more sight impaired folks.

    Jason

  7. #37
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    Re: Dead in 7 Minutes - The Importance of Verifying your ppO2 in shorter intervals

    Quote Originally Posted by alpine44  View Original Post
    I have (mis)used a CCR only twice but I think few of the experts will disagree that the ppO2 decay to deadly levels within a few minutes APPLIES TO EVERYONE metabolizing O2 from a closed loop IF NO OXYGEN IS ADDED.

    There are several ways Oxygen can be added to the loop of a CCR and several ways these methods can fail.

    Unless there is an O2 addition method that will NEVER fail, any diligent CCR user would be well advised to check the loop ppO2 IN SHORTER INTERVALS THAN THE LOOP DECAY TIME IN THE WORST CASE SCENARIO.

    In other words, if the loop can go hypoxic in X minutes WHEN (not if) O2 addition fails, then we HAVE TO verify the pp02 every X/2 or X/3 minutes.

    Verifying the ppO2 in shorter intervals than the loop decay to hypoxic will protect us not only from failure of the addition mechanism but also from our own stupidity like jumping in with the O2 closed or having something other than 100% O2 in the O2 bottle. (I again hope that experts concur).

    It appears, that some rebreather users seem to think that checking and interpreting ONE display several times a minute interferes with their diving fun and they hope that some mechanic or electronic contraption will relieve them of this life-critical duty.

    To put this notion in perspective let's just look at where the term "Tango Uniform" or "Tits Up" (supposedly) came from. Early artificial horizons displayed an airplane in normal attitude like this -v*v- (tits down). Tits up means inverted, which is bad news unless you intend to be that way and have the skills to return to normal before hitting the ground.

    An airplane does not just go Tango Uniform by itself and a CCR loop does not go hypoxic without reason. If this "suddenly happens", the pilot was simply asleep at the wheel for quite some time (several minutes in both cases).

    Any freshly FAA-minted pilot will have learned and ingrained to check 5 to 10 instruments several times per minute while listening to the radio, scanning the skies for traffic, looking at charts, changing radio frequencies, talking to passengers/instructors, etc. At the other end of the experience spectrum we have pilots like the famous Chuck Yeager who have refined this situational awareness to where they could correctly observe, interpret, and report hundreds of parameters.

    Why can airplane/helicopter/blimp pilots deal with the element of distraction that gets cited in the rebreather community as an inescapable and, to my surprise, excusable reason for screw ups?

    My explanation is that in the aviation community a reluctance or failure to frequently monitor attitude, altitude, and speed of your airplane is considered an expression of a fundamentally unsafe attitude. Subsequently, operators of airplanes who proclaim they can delegate the responsibility of ACUTE and CONTINUOUS situational awareness to any form of "autopilot" are not considered diligent and competent pilots but accidents waiting to happen.

    Also, the most hairy chested pilots who fly flame-trailing contraptions of raw machismo have absolutely no ego problem with using a PHYSICAL checklist to verify that they are in fact doing their job. I have yet to see a rebreather "pilot" with a physical checklist on a boat, on the water's edge, or even on the set-up bench. Real divers do not need this sissy stuff - WRONG.

    IMO there are systemic reasons, deeply routed in training and peer dynamics, that make aviation "safe by design". If CCR divers already refer to "flying" their units they might as well adopt these proven processes. (Unfortunately, the aversion towards DIR stands in the way of this progress as "They" were already smart enough to apply very similar philosophies and methods to OC diving and who wants to admit their success in that domain)

    A tiny hole in a ruby, while temporarily helpful, will not address the root cause of most rebreather fatalities - lack of diligence, awareness, and focus.

    This Rebreather family ALWAYS uses physical checklists for Setup, Pre Dive and Pre Breath (jump) phases of operations. No exceptions. Most of our local group has at least adopted dive computer mounted printed Pre Breath (Jump) checklists. If your Macho attitude precludes their use, get over it, stay alive.
    Last edited by swadiver; 19th June 2011 at 22:05.

  8. #38
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    Re: Dead in 7 Minutes - The Importance of a Continuous Flow Oxygen Orifice

    I understand your point but much of this is covered with a properly designed HUD that does not require you a "quick glance" to know that status of your unit.

    I had an interesting situation today that is applicable to this conversation. The unit that I happened to dive today had a Shearwater Predator and an X1 for PP02 display. It was also the one very few times in the last 5 years that I have dove without a HUD. It was driving me crazy to not have the PP02 status of the unit in front of me at all times.

    Just my 2 cents...

    M

    Quote Originally Posted by apitkin  View Original Post
    That's fine, but we're talking about analog rather than (or in addition to) digital representation of the PO2 on the wrist display (Predator) to give information at a quick glance.

    Green is good, but are you near the top or bottom of the range? How close are the sensors reading to each other? This information can be interpreted more rapidly with an analog display than with a digital one. It's not about the color, although as Jason mentioned color cues can be incorporated to make it more effective.

  9. #39
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    Re: Dead in 7 Minutes - The Importance of a Continuous Flow Oxygen Orifice

    Seems to me all this BS is as simple as looking as looking at your HUD.

  10. #40
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    Re: Dead in 7 Minutes - The Importance of a Continuous Flow Oxygen Orifice

    And once again the point is missed- many units do not have a HUD. And just because you do have a HUD, you would cripple the abilities of your primary display because you are that positive your HUD will always work? Fine with me. Ever heard of redundancy?

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