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Thread: TDI CCR CAVE outlines

  1. #1
    RBW Member BlueLabelDiving is an unknown quantity at this point BlueLabelDiving's Avatar
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    TDI CCR CAVE outlines

    Hi all,

    First of all I'd like to say that this is nothing spectacularly new under the sun. TDI has had full cave outlines for more than a decade and was one of the first agencies to adopt CCR standards under its' umbrella. However, in the recent years, more and more cave divers started to see the benefits of taking rebreathers along in caves. Moreover, heaps of CCR divers are seeing cave diving as their next step and would like to take their unit to the darker side.

    Taking a CCR into a cave is possible if you have followed a CCR diver course and a cave course from any recognized agency. With those two cards, you are good to go.

    The same goes for CCR instructors carrying a full cave instructor license; they can teach cave courses on a specific unit as long as the student is certified on that specific unit.

    Why combined CCR-CAVE outlines?

    - Recently, other agencies have been giving out cards combining both CCR and cave. Resulting in some local cave communities raising the bar and demanding cave divers, wishing to take their unit, show a CCR-CAVE card prior to jumping into their local pit.

    - Another point brought up by other CCR-CAVE instructors is the liability; are they covered in case of lawsuit / mishap with a student on a CCR in a cave? The training agency says yes, but will your insurance share that same generosity?

    - Lastly, taking a CCR into an overhead environment asks from the diver minor considerations which can have major consequences if not planned properly;

    Officially, a MOD 1 diver without prior decompression training, can, after doing a full cave course on OC, venture as far into the cave as he/she wants to on his/her CCR, this, as long as he/she does not venture into deco and respects the rule of thirds.

    This is where the minor/major adjustments arise;

    Bail out to OC at the deepest point of entry;

    - will the bail out gas keep the diver out of deco all the way?
    - will the diver have enough OC gas to make it back out in case of a CO2 hit (and his/her SAC triples)?

    These are points taken into considerations in the combined TDI CCR-CAVE outlines.

    The outlines follow closely both TDI CCR AND CAVE standards, but add small details with regards to equipment, bail out procedures and CCR specific cave skills.

    I'd like to hear your feedback.

    Credits also go to Mat Partridge from Pro-tech Dive College for his input.

    You can find a copy of these outlines at TDI CCR CAVE Outlines

    or send me a mail ben@bluelabeldiving.com

    ATB,

    Ben Reymenants

    CCR-CAVE-TMX

    bluelabeldiving.com

  2. #2
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    Re: TDI CCR CAVE outlines

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueLabelDiving  View Original Post
    Hi all,

    First of all I'd like to say that this is nothing spectacularly new under the sun. TDI has had full cave outlines for more than a decade and was one of the first agencies to adopt CCR standards under its' umbrella. However, in the recent years, more and more cave divers started to see the benefits of taking rebreathers along in caves. Moreover, heaps of CCR divers are seeing cave diving as their next step and would like to take their unit to the darker side.
    Just some constructive questions:
    For Level 1
    1) Why have a pre-req of MOD II, but specifically disallow deco in Level 1? Why not make the pre-req MOD I?

    2) What is the max penetration limit based on (60m / 180ft)?

    3) The requirements do not state of penetration is based on the tie-in point, or the ascent to open open/entry. Applying this penetration to Jackson blue would mean nerver making it to the chimney.

    4) The course isn't mCCR and eCCR specific, nor is there a requirement for a HUD on the mCCR. In a low/no viz situation, is Level 1 addressing the basics for safe CCR Cave diving?

    5) I don't see any mention of springs vs siphons, or other types of cave structures.

    For Level 2
    6) Based on standards, a Level 2 CCR diver could penetrate to 1/2 of their OC bailout. Using this concept, a diver could get thousands of feet into shallow, Mexican caves while still meeting the bailout requirements. I'm curious why "time to exit" doesn't become a factor in training for survival. The longer the exit takes, the more stress is incurred, and the higher the probability of a compounded problem.

    Why not adopt a training approach of n-number minute exit?

    For Level 3
    7) There is now talk about cylinder management and bailout management in teams. I am NOT speaking of Team Bailout - More along the lines of bailout cylinder management on exit and gas sharing.
    Last edited by brockbr; 17th August 2010 at 14:22.
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  3. #3
    RBW Member BlueLabelDiving is an unknown quantity at this point BlueLabelDiving's Avatar
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    Re: TDI CCR CAVE outlines

    Quote Originally Posted by brockbr  View Original Post
    Just some constructive questions:
    For Level 1
    1) Why have a pre-req of MOD II, but specifically disallow deco in Level 1? Why not make the pre-req MOD I?
    BECAUSE THERE IS A CHANCE THE DIVER GOES INTO DECO ON OC, WHILE STILL FINE ON HIS CCR
    2) What is the max penetration limit based on (60m / 180ft)?
    SAME STANDARDS AS CAVERN/INTRO/FULL (INDEED, CAVERN= 60M/180FT)
    3) The requirements do not state of penetration is based on the tie-in point, or the ascent to open open/entry. Applying this penetration to Jackson blue would mean nerver making it to the chimney.
    TRUE, AND THERE ARE MANY MORE EXCEPTIONS WORLDWIDE, HENCE THE LIMIT FOR CAVERN IS SET IN DISTANCE-TO-THE-EXIT. ALLOWING DIRECT ACCESS TO THE SURFACE
    4) The course isn't mCCR and eCCR specific, nor is there a requirement for a HUD on the mCCR. In a low/no viz situation, is Level 1 addressing the basics for safe CCR Cave diving?
    GOOD POINT. THE REASON WHY WE WROTE THESE OUTLINES IS TO FOCUS ONLY ON THE CCR-CAVE SPECIFIC DETAILS. THE REST CAN BE FOUND IN THE TDI GENERIC CAVE OR CCR OUTLINES

    5) I don't see any mention of springs vs siphons, or other types of cave structures.
    THISE ARE DIFFERENT COURSES AND DIFFERENT SPECIALTIES (SUMP, SIDEMOUNT) I'M SURE SOMEONE IN THE UK WILL COME UP WITH THOSE SOON?
    For Level 2
    6) Based on standards, a Level 2 CCR diver could penetrate to 1/2 of their OC bailout. Using this concept, a diver could get thousands of feet into shallow, Mexican caves while still meeting the bailout requirements. I'm curious why "time to exit" doesn't become a factor in training for survival. The longer the exit takes, the more stress is incurred, and the higher the probability of a compounded problem.
    I TOTALLY AGREE, BUT SHOULD A CAVE DIVER VENTURE THOUSANDS OF FEET INTO A CAVE IF HE/SHE CANNOT SAFELY/SANELY EXIT ON BAIL OUT? MEXICO HAS SUPERB CONDITIONS, HOW WOULD YOU LIMIT UK DIVERS IN COLD/LOW VIZ CONDITIONS?


    For Level 3
    7) There is now talk about cylinder management and bailout management in teams. I am NOT speaking of Team Bailout - More along the lines of bailout cylinder management on exit and gas sharing.
    INDEED, THIS IS WERE THE DIVER IS ALLOWED TO APPLY MORE COMPLEX NAVIGATION, FURTHER AND CAN GO INTO DECO, HENCE THE NEED TO PINPOINT GAS NEEDS.

    Thanks for the feedback. I hope you understand that we could not combine all ccr and full cave standards under 1 outline without having to submit a 40 page document. Points that are not in these unique outlines should be referred to in the generic TDI CCR or TDI CAVE outlines


    PLEASE NOTE THAT THE LINK BELOW HAS BEEN DISABLED. THESE ARE UNIQUE OUTLINES AND NOT FOR PUBLIC VIEWING.
    YOU CAN STILL PM ME

    ATB, BEN

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    RBW Member mjm is an unknown quantity at this point mjm's Avatar
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    Re: TDI CCR CAVE outlines

    not sure if this is relevant but teaching a TDI cave course involving CCR all divers must be on same brand/type of rebreather. I believe the reason behind this is to not disract from cave course to compairing units.

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    RBW Member BlueLabelDiving is an unknown quantity at this point BlueLabelDiving's Avatar
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    Re: TDI CCR CAVE outlines

    Quote Originally Posted by mjm  View Original Post
    not sure if this is relevant but teaching a TDI cave course involving CCR all divers must be on same brand/type of rebreather. I believe the reason behind this is to not disract from cave course to compairing units.
    You are right in that the generic TDI CCR standards do dictate this. Practically, this is a niche market and asking the instructor to own a unit/instr ticket for all ccr's out there would be quite cumbersome to say the least. Agreed with HQ was that the instructor should be at least on a similar type unit, using universal QC's, gasses etc. so emergency drills/ scenario's can be executed in a non-unit specific way. Personally I believe this is the way forward in creating a cross-training incentive between instructor and student on different units.

    Best, Ben

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