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Thread: Cave Haba Bag

  1. #1
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    Cave Haba Bag

    The ADM Exploration Foundation is ramping up for several 2010 deep cave exploration projects such as the Weeki Wachee project. These expeditions are now requiring extensive decompression times from 5 to 18 hours.

    Due to the environment these divers will be exposed, thermal control and gas management problems have become a major hurdle to over come.

    I have come up with this simple to build “Water Heated Haba Bag” which would be considerable easier to install, require much less lift, but provide a diver with a controlled environment.

    I was also contemplating the possibility of converting the inside air bell into a scrubbed rebreather habitat to help minimize the massive amounts of OC gas that would be required.

    The below Haba Bag would only have an estimated 1,700 pounds of lift, compared to tens of thousands for a full body habitat.

    I would like to hear from the RBW design freaks about their ideas

    I would also like to hear from anyone who is an expert in water heat pumps that could be used on the surface that could maintain a set water temp within the haba bag.
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    Last edited by Curt Bowen; 23rd November 2009 at 16:30.

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    Re: Cave Haba Bag

    I don't really have alot to contribute but wanted to say- thats a very nice idea, well done whoever dreamt it up!!

    I would have thought (maybe you've done this already) some experimentation with the hot in vs cold out positions is in order, the old hot rises business and pulling cold water off the top would perhaps keep the legs warmer and provide more even heating but it really would need experimentation with thermometers and the like to compare the too.

    I would also wonder if rather than a "canvas" skirt you might want a double walled (inflatable) barrier to keep the cold out- more insulating (but more complex)

    Not sure I'd want to be inside decompressing with the bottom closed but i don't have any habitate time so maybe thats ok

    Of course you'll need neon blue LED's under the water, a banging sound system, somewhere to balance your martini and a Bikini clad lovely to complete the jacuzzi effect

  3. #3
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    Re: Cave Haba Bag

    Hi

    you will need also an umbrella because it is going to be raining inside because the condensation...

    Good idea anyway...

    How deep/long are you thinking to go if you will need 18 hour decompresión in 6 mtrs?

    Best

    Mikel

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    Re: Cave Haba Bag

    On most of my commercial dives(even in northeast winter) I use 3mm wetsuit with build in 'spider' distributing surface supply hot water throughout the suit. You can stay comfortable like this for hours.
    I realize that in exploratory dives, like these you have in mind, dry suit will be tool of choice, but instead of building habitat like contraption you can first try something much simple.
    On some dives in really nasty contaminated water (sucking up mud, full of PCBs) we were forced to use dry suits. To keep thermal comfort we wear work coveralls over the dry suit with duct tapped slaves and legs. Huuuuge difference. Simple and effective. You can deposit coveralls at deco area and put them on just for a deco and all you need is a length of a garden hose connected to hot water machine on top.
    that is if you only considering thermal aspect - having dry chamber after long dives and durring extended deco will be beneficial for other reasons.
    rgrds
    Tomek
    Last edited by RZEP17; 23rd November 2009 at 17:48.

  5. #5
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    Re: Cave Haba Bag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikel-Deko  View Original Post
    Hi

    you will need also an umbrella because it is going to be raining inside because the condensation...

    Good idea anyway...

    How deep/long are you thinking to go if you will need 18 hour decompresión in 6 mtrs?

    Best

    Mikel
    The bag is not just for 6m, but could possibly be raised from 20m to 6m
    Weeki project is now at a depth of 360 to 400 ft with estimated bottom times of over 3 hours

  6. #6
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    Re: Cave Haba Bag

    Quote Originally Posted by RZEP17  View Original Post
    On most of my commercial dives(even in northeast winter) I use 3mm wetsuit with build in 'spider' distributing surface supply hot water throughout the suit. You can stay comfortable like this for hours.
    I realize that in exploratory dives, like these you have in mind, dry suit will be tool of choice, but instead of building habitat like contraption you can first try something much simple.
    On some dives in really nasty contaminated water (sucking up mud, full of PCBs) we were forced to use dry suits. To keep thermal comfort we wear work coveralls over the dry suit with duct tapped slaves and legs. Huuuuge difference. Simple and effective. You can deposit coveralls at deco area and put them on just for a deco and all you need is a length of a garden hose connected to hot water machine on top.
    that is if you only considering thermal aspect - having dry chamber after long dives and durring extended deco will be beneficial for other reasons.
    rgrds
    Tomek

    The divers must use a dry suit due to the amount of time they will be spending in the water until they can even reach the haba bag.

    I could see making an adapter to flood a dry suit with heated water until they could reach the permanent habitat at 20 feet. But a flooded suit would cause some buoyancy concerns within the shaft of the cave.

  7. #7
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    Re: Cave Haba Bag

    Curt,

    what's the water temperature?

    we have some experience of quite long dives, unless it's *very* cold then argon, drysuit & electrical vest / underclothes are probably the way to go.

    don't think of flooding a drysuit, if something went wrong with the heating you'd have a real problem keeping warm

    regards,
    John

  8. #8

    Re: Cave Haba Bag

    Since your running power down for lights, couldn't you just set aside two more DC lines for suit heaters? You can stage battery's with wet connects along with some of the BO deco gas, when they get to the Haba bag, they just unplug the packs and go to surface power.

    Alternatively, you could get the small recirculating hot water pads they use in hospitals/ vet clinics and tape them along the divers torso/limbs, again using a jack in the dry suit to plug it into an external line. This gives you the good thermal transfer from water, and would not involve flooding the whole suit to warm up the diver.
    Allen

  9. #9
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    Re: Cave Haba Bag

    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Bowen  View Original Post
    The divers must use a dry suit due to the amount of time they will be spending in the water until they can even reach the haba bag.

    I could see making an adapter to flood a dry suit with heated water until they could reach the permanent habitat at 20 feet. But a flooded suit would cause some buoyancy concerns within the shaft of the cave.
    I probably fail to explain properly....
    You do your dive in a dry suit with coveralls worn on top of dry suit(you can also put them on latter if you choose). When you come back to the shallow deco stops, you stick the garden hose with hot water in to the coveralls. The hot water is partially retain between the dry suit and the coveralls creating virtual layer of a tropical water. With the constant flow of a hot water from the surface temperature stays nice and comfortable. no need for adapters, no problems with buoyancy. The temperature may be adjusted topside, as well as indirectly by the diver by regulating the flow of hots.
    rgrds
    Tomek

  10. #10
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    Re: Cave Haba Bag

    Quote Originally Posted by RZEP17  View Original Post
    I probably fail to explain properly....
    You do your dive in a dry suit with coveralls worn on top of dry suit(you can also put them on latter if you choose). When you come back to the shallow deco stops, you stick the garden hose with hot water in to the coveralls. The hot water is partially retain between the dry suit and the coveralls creating virtual layer of a tropical water. With the constant flow of a hot water from the surface temperature stays nice and comfortable. no need for adapters, no problems with buoyancy. The temperature may be adjusted topside, as well as indirectly by the diver by regulating the flow of hots.
    rgrds
    Tomek

    Interesting.... I will need to test out a few new ideas and see if it works

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