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Thread: D.A.N. America Warning!

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    Cool Re: D.A.N. America Warning!

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer
    I switched a few months ago to DiveSafe insurance.

    www.divesafeinsurance.com
    I used Dive Safe for years, they are cheaper than DAN. When I started Trimix diving I switched to Dan, because of there Doctor Network. they are available 24/7. Dan does have issues, but for the money,International recognition, and Doctor network it is the best bang for you $. Just my PPO2

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    Re: D.A.N. America Warning!

    DAN's "reply" is up at http://diversalertnetwork.com/news/a...asp?newsid=709

    The gist of their response is that the charges are higher than they're willing to pay, the dispute is real, and people are suing one another over the dispute. There were plenty of weasel words in there about whether or not you'd end up having to pull out your AMEX if you found yourself needing to use one of those chambers...... whenever someone doens't say straight up "no", you can assume the answer is "yes".

    Oh, they also took the time to identify by name one individual and blame him for the whole thing.

    Ok, with that said, where's the DAN people with what IS "usual and customary"? And how come they're not saying something like this:

    "Chamber treatments for a standard Table 6 range in cost from $x to $y in the region in question. The people we're having the dispute with want to charge $Z, which exceeds $Y by an outrageous amount."

    Hmmmm...... no answers from DAN - just dodgeball..... I'm NOT impressed, and its clear that the long knives are out on both sides. This does not benefit us as the purchasers of these services...... before you dive, you might want to make sure the chamber you're closest to will take your dive insurance without problems!

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    Re: D.A.N. America Warning!

    How is Divesafe?? does anyone have any experience with them?

    Cheers

  4. #14
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    Re: D.A.N. America Warning!

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis
    DAN's "reply" is up at http://diversalertnetwork.com/news/a...asp?newsid=709

    The gist of their response is that the charges are higher than they're willing to pay, the dispute is real, and people are suing one another over the dispute. There were plenty of weasel words in there about whether or not you'd end up having to pull out your AMEX if you found yourself needing to use one of those chambers...... whenever someone doens't say straight up "no", you can assume the answer is "yes".

    Oh, they also took the time to identify by name one individual and blame him for the whole thing.

    Ok, with that said, where's the DAN people with what IS "usual and customary"? And how come they're not saying something like this:

    "Chamber treatments for a standard Table 6 range in cost from $x to $y in the region in question. The people we're having the dispute with want to charge $Z, which exceeds $Y by an outrageous amount."

    Hmmmm...... no answers from DAN - just dodgeball..... I'm NOT impressed, and its clear that the long knives are out on both sides. This does not benefit us as the purchasers of these services...... before you dive, you might want to make sure the chamber you're closest to will take your dive insurance without problems!
    Let us wait for DAN to be able to answer this, as they have promised, otherwise we become a bunch of hoodlums assisting some chamber operator to deal in a heavy handed with DAN.

    I feel a lot of sympathy for DAN America. Chamber charges are scandalous, most seem very unreasonable, and many keep out competition by close association with regulators. This means that DAN Europe is a lot more expensive than DAN America, as these incestuous relationships are stronger in Europe than the US (at least they are in Scotland: I can give some real horror stories of what happens if you try and take business from a chamber operator who has an exclusive for a territory).

    Someone has to say where the buck stops. The statement from DAN America, relayed here, seems a very sensible one.

    What the chamber operator seems to be doing is blackmailing DAN America to pay whatever they dream up. If we all stood behind DAN America on this, it might strart driving down insurance costs.

    My 2c.

    Cheers
    Alex

  5. #15
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    Re: D.A.N. America Warning!

    Okay, as promised, here is the text of the DAN statement:

    The DAN Diver Accident Insurance Program has provided coverage for hundreds of thousands of divers and their families, and DAN America’s insurers have paid out more than $20 million dollars in claims to members and treatment facilities around the globe. During this time, DAN has collected and exhaustively studied a wealth of information on treatment charges. From this, DAN has identified ‘reasonable and customary’ charges for treatment of decompression illness. This information is an important component to any insurance program to assure treatment of injuries at a fair price. This benefits both the insurer and the insured.

    Unfortunately there is currently a dispute between DAN and Mr. Mauricio Moreno, the owner of a few chambers in our region. Specifically the dispute involves what constitutes reasonable and customary charges for hyperbaric chamber treatment. It is DAN's view that reasonable and customary means the usual charges of similar chambers. It is the view of Mr. Moreno that reasonable and customary means what the chamber charges, even if the charges are significantly higher than charges of other similar chambers. One major international insurance company previously withdrew coverage altogether due to these high charges. Having been sued by Mr. Moreno, DAN is now forced to address this situation legally.

    There is no dispute, however, that DAN's insurers have agreed to pay Mr. Moreno's chambers at what they consider reasonable and customary rates. Therefore, if Mr. Moreno requires divers to pay in full for services when rendered, even for the portion of charges in excess of what is reasonable and customary, Mr. Moreno is needlessly overreaching and inconveniencing divers.

    Despite these issues, DAN is committed to providing coverage to our members regardless of where they live and dive. Therefore, we have attempted to negotiate with Mr. Moreno over several years,including DAN’s attempt to identify costs unique to his chambers,but without success.The good news is that the vast majority of chamber operators in the USA and around the world provide excellent treatments and services at fair rates.

    Despite this dispute, DAN will continue to take care of divers in need. DAN encourages members to ALWAYS contact DAN directly if there is any question about treatment issues or payment of services. DAN, as we always have, will address such inquiries immediately, 24/7/365. No DAN member who purchases dive accident insurance through DAN should be at risk of not being covered.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It is also presented as an attachment to this post.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That having been said, I do not see the same re-assurances in the official statement that Mr. Orr gave to me verbally, and I posted earlier.

    What say you, one and all?

    Rob
    Attached Files
    Last edited by ROB DAVIE; 10th January 2006 at 22:29.

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    Re: D.A.N. America Warning!

    Quote Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE
    What say you, one and all?

    Rob
    Here's what I say: This appears to be some MF'er using us to force DAN to pay higher prices than treatment costs would justify. On other boards people are already screaming about canceling their DAN insurance and wanting to know what the refund policy is.

    I think that it's all a load of crap and we are being used to injure DAN and score legal points.

    I have never had a problem with DAN in any capacity and it would take FAR more than a pseudo-legal attack over the internet to make me turn on them. I say that it's way too early to make snap-judgements.

    - John

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    Re: D.A.N. America Warning!

    Quote Originally Posted by John Rawlings
    Here's what I say: This appears to be some MF'er using us to force DAN to pay higher prices than treatment costs would justify. On other boards people are already screaming about canceling their DAN insurance and wanting to know what the refund policy is.

    I think that it's all a load of crap and we are being used to injure DAN and score legal points.

    I have never had a problem with DAN in any capacity and it would take FAR more than a pseudo-legal attack over the internet to make me turn on them. I say that it's way too early to make snap-judgements.

    - John
    Nice post John!!!!!!!!! I agree with you all the way. If DAN was really not taking care of the chambers, there would be alot more than one chamber operator that was having a problem. DAN is a large organization and if this is the only problem, then it may be an isolated one.

  8. #18
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    Re: D.A.N. America Warning!

    Folks,

    In a further message to me, reprinted by permission, Mr. Orr had this to say:

    Hi Rob!

    Thanks for the help. I have received further information regarding this
    issue. We have received information that many of the SSS facilities are
    going to be issuing a press release that they are not involved in this
    and do, in deed, honor DAN insurance. As soon as we get confirmation of
    this, it will be posted on our website.

    Dan

    --------------------------------

    Just as a note, and in the interest of full-disclosure, I am a DAN professional member, and also have DAN insurance. I have never heard any serious professional criticism of DAN, and plan to remain a member.

    Rob



  9. #19
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    Re: D.A.N. America Warning!

    Nothing new here.

    I provide anaesthetic services (albiet in Australia not the US).

    If I give you an anaesthetic, I send you a bill. How much that bill is going to be is up to me. You are strongly encouraged to get a quote before hand; my practise employs 2 full time staff to do this.

    Your insurance provider will have decided how much they will pay for that particular service. If I charge more than they'll pay, you make up the shortfall. I (my staff) will ensure that you are aware what this amount will be.

    In an emergency situation things are slightly different because neither you, or indeed I are necessarily in a position to do this fairly. In this situation I personally ensure my fees are such that you won't have to pay anything out of your own pocket. This is no big deal for me because most of my income comes from planned, not emergency work, so if I lose out a bit on the emergency stuff then I wear that. Not everyone feels this way or has the luxury of being able to do this.

    Fundamentally though, I decide what I'm worth and the insurer decides what they think reasonable compensation for the patient is. There will always be a range from cheapest to most expensive in a group of independant service providers. Insurance companies have many strategies to attack those at the top end of the range. After all that's how the company makes profits for its shareholders.

    A final point. The dispute here really doesn't involve DAN so much as it involves the company that underwrites their insurance. I suspect that DAN are just as stuck as those of us with DAN insurance.

  10. #20
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    Re: D.A.N. America Warning!

    Hello,

    I don't want to say too much about this, but as someone who knows a lot about treating insured divers from overseas, the costs involved in doing so, the clinical decision making process that guides treatment, and the prices that are fair and reasonable to charge, my advice would be for all of you to cut DAN some slack while they sort this out.

    Simon M

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