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Thread: Certification for Computers?

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    IDA72 - sorrta

    Certification for Computers?

    Hello,
    I was just wondering about technicalities.
    With all the talk of CE certs and training on any particular machine, because of the risk one takes by the use of a rebreather, if an untrained diver wanted to purchase and use a dive computer that was capable of CCR O2 cell monitoring. Would there be any legal ramifications to that mfg if an incident were to occur? Should a c-card be required to purchase a pin to unlock any ccr features? I only ask these questions because it seems that any scr or ccr mfg can only sell there kit to an individual that has passed all criteria set by whom ever offers certification on any particular unit. Now if I were to finish my "homebuilt" machine, up to the point of buying O2 cells and computers, is there anything stopping some dipshit lawyer of fileing against these mfg's for selling "life support" equipment to the unexperianced diver?

    Thank you for you consideration,
    Hunter
    Last edited by 19Hunter68; 14th June 2009 at 03:57.

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    Re: Certification for Computers?

    O2 cells and computers are not " life support " equipment, they are only
    components to the system. The reason for pins was to avoid the c-card issue
    to begin with, and it pretty much has gone the way of the lead acid battery.
    People are going to do what they want anyway, so if some lawyer on some
    one else's behalf wants to sue.... guess what.
    Speaking of lawyer's it has been so cold this winter, that they where seen with
    their hands in their own pockets

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    Megalodon

    Re: Certification for Computers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 19Hunter68  View Original Post
    Hello,
    I was just wondering about technicalities.
    With all the talk of CE certs and training on any particular machine, because of the risk one takes by the use of a rebreather, if an untrained diver wanted to purchase and use a dive computer that was capable of CCR O2 cell monitoring. Would there be any legal ramifications to that mfg if an incident were to occur? Should a c-card be required to purchase a pin to unlock any ccr features? I only ask these questions because it seems that any scr or ccr mfg can only sell there kit to an individual that has passed all criteria set by whom ever offers certification on any particular unit. Now if I were to finish my "homebuilt" machine, up to the point of buying O2 cells and computers, is there anything stopping some dipshit lawyer of fileing against these mfg's for selling "life support" equipment to the unexperianced diver?

    Thank you for you consideration,
    Hunter

    Hell, I don't know. You can buy a whole lot of stuff at Home Depot that can kill you pretty quick, too. Or the gas station. Or the liquor store. Or the grocery store. Or the drug store. Heck, I bet I could kill myself in a hurry without buying anything at all- there's a creek across the street from my house, and a busy intersection a few blocks away......

  4. #4
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    IDA72 - sorrta

    Re: Certification for Computers?

    Quote Originally Posted by mountain diver  View Original Post
    O2 cells and computers are not " life support " equipment, they are only
    components to the system. The reason for pins was to avoid the c-card issue
    to begin with
    but isn't the whole unit just a component? I can buy a computer that tells me what too do and when to do it, (i.e. stop, slow, wait depending on the gas mix, here is your ppo2, have a glitch and it renders the life support system useless). what if an inexperianced diver buys a new unit fully unlocked and does what it says, but not being formally trained on it, has an issue? In what I see happening (I really hope I am wrong) is nothing different than say purchasing a complete loop and diving it without formal training. The computer in essance is a "life support system" the whole loop is dependant on what it says. Otherwise, any mfg could put out a non-electronic machine and allow the end user to assemble two independant devices and neither entity should be held liable for any misuse. I realize that this is in no way is better for the industry as a whole, but was really wanting to know what part of a rebreather is actually considered a "life support unit"? Is an O2 rebreather a "life support system"? If so, why could I purchase this without training? When you add o2 monitoring and are able to go deeper, is that the line for formal training?

    Regards,
    Hunter

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    Re: Certification for Computers?

    At the moment, rebreather divers are a tiny group of barely over 6,000 people who manage to fly under the radar. I truly hope that we can conduct ourselves well enough to earn the right to be left alone. When I got my first rebreather ticket I had a keen appreciation that I had a huge amount still to learn, and that that ticket was no magic talisman that would keep me from harm's way. Still, some people don't take that qualification and learn about rebreathers from designing and making their own. Such people often know far more about rebreathers than those who merely plodded through the course. Long may we be free to make those decisions ourselves. No damned politician is going to tell me what risks I may take and which I may not. I left nanny behind when I left the nursery, and now my mistakes are my own responsibility.

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    Re: Certification for Computers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 19Hunter68  View Original Post
    The computer in essance is a "life support system" the whole loop is dependant on what it says.
    No, you're quite wrong: a rebreather is not a life-support system - it is a tool with which you can keep yourself alive if you use it correctly. It is the belief that it will keep you alive that puts your life at risk. You stay alive by believing that the rebreather is trying to kill you.

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    Re: Certification for Computers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nailer99  View Original Post
    Hell, I don't know. You can buy a whole lot of stuff at Home Depot that can kill you pretty quick, too.
    Speaking as someone who has both glued my hands together and elecrocuted myself more than once, I would have to agree about Home Depot. Electricity is a bitch not to be messed with, now back to the original question. The C card people make their money by issuing.... yes you guessed it C cards! A card doesn't mean someone is competent. Computers come with instruction manuals and they are designed to be easy to use. For both of my computers, I have read the manual and done a couple 30 ft dives to test it and practice. For me that is enough. Anyway that's my opinion. What's next? Certification for fin usage?

    Tyler

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    Re: Certification for Computers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 19Hunter68  View Original Post
    but isn't the whole unit just a component? I can buy a computer that tells me what too do and when to do it, (i.e. stop, slow, wait depending on the gas mix, here is your ppo2, have a glitch and it renders the life support system useless). what if an inexperianced diver buys a new unit fully unlocked and does what it says, but not being formally trained on it, has an issue? In what I see happening (I really hope I am wrong) is nothing different than say purchasing a complete loop and diving it without formal training. The computer in essance is a "life support system" the whole loop is dependant on what it says. Otherwise, any mfg could put out a non-electronic machine and allow the end user to assemble two independant devices and neither entity should be held liable for any misuse. I realize that this is in no way is better for the industry as a whole, but was really wanting to know what part of a rebreather is actually considered a "life support unit"? Is an O2 rebreather a "life support system"? If so, why could I purchase this without training? When you add o2 monitoring and are able to go deeper, is that the line for formal training?

    Regards,
    Hunter
    Who is going to sell you a unit with out training? You can buy pretty much
    buy anything with out a license this is true, ie. car, plane,helicopter etc.
    The scuba industry is self-regulated, and so far have done good job with out
    the governments intervention let's keep it that way.
    Hunter, here is a question. The person that bought an APOC, do they think they will receive a unit with out training? NO WAY.

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    Re: Certification for Computers?

    My understanding is that CE for dive computers is as a depth gauge and timer. There is no CE requirement for the actual dive computer functions like O2 monitoring or decompression, though O2 monitoring does become part of the test when a computer includes a rebreather controller.

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    Re: Certification for Computers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 19Hunter68  View Original Post
    I can buy a computer that tells me what too do and when to do it

    Ahhhh... but it isn't telling you what to do.

    All it is doing is telling you the state of an arbitrary mathematical model based on info you've supplied it with.

    It's reporting info to you, how you choose to interpret that is up to you. Look at sat-navs and the number of people that have ended up in the drink, stuck in dirt tracks, etc. It isn't a substitute for common sense which is how a lot of people see such devices.

    Cheers,

    Stuart

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