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Thread: video: Sentinel workshop with Kevin Gurr at EuroTek 2008

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    Brent - Narked at 90
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    Re: video: Sentinel workshop with Kevin Gurr at EuroTek 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by Faceless  View Original Post
    My guess is that there is a some sort of misunderstanding here about cell checks. I was asking Kevin about this and he thinks that cell checkers are nice to have feature, but it does not mean that rebreather should not check linearity during a dive. In other words, a kind of real-time cell checker must be embedded into electronics itself, to do the job during a dive, like it currently is at Sentinel & OR mCCR. I personally consider these two models as most advanced breathers at today's sport market in regards of PPO2 control & fault-tolerant architecture.
    I agree.
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  2. #12
    RBW Member jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk's Avatar
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    Re: video: Sentinel workshop with Kevin Gurr at EuroTek 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by Faceless  View Original Post
    My guess is that there is a some sort of misunderstanding here about cell checks. I was asking Kevin about this and he thinks that cell checkers are nice to have feature, but it does not mean that rebreather should not check linearity during a dive. In other words, a kind of real-time cell checker must be embedded into electronics itself, to do the job during a dive, like it currently is at Sentinel & OR mCCR. I personally consider these two models as most advanced breathers at today's sport market in regards of PPO2 control & fault-tolerant architecture.

    Sorry, there is no misunderstanding. He went on for almost 5 minutes about how he has never used a cell checker and how the cells are just linear and do not fail...its the electronics or corrosion. Maybe he should publish a paper on his view with supporting evidence or was he just ranting madly in front of a group of loyal followers.....I did not hear a single person in the group call him on the carpet regarding his bold statements!

    John

  3. #13
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    Re: video: Sentinel workshop with Kevin Gurr at EuroTek 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk  View Original Post
    Sorry, there is no misunderstanding. He went on for almost 5 minutes about how he has never used a cell checker and how the cells are just linear and do not fail...its the electronics or corrosion. Maybe he should publish a paper on his view with supporting evidence or was he just ranting madly in front of a group of loyal followers.....I did not hear a single person in the group call him on the carpet regarding his bold statements!
    Of course you may realise that most of us believed it already and subscribe to the "change 'em every year but otherwise leave 'em alone" school of thought. His remarks on damp on the cell faces matches some comments reportedly from the man at Vandergraph reported elsewhere very closely. Only on the internet do you get the conspiracy theories about cells being an evil plot to kill divers.

    KG has the background and experience to be worth listening to...
    ...but then I would say that wouldn't I?

  4. #14
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    Re: video: Sentinel workshop with Kevin Gurr at EuroTek 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by nigelh  View Original Post
    Only on the internet do you get the conspiracy theories about cells being an evil plot to kill divers.
    Unfortunatly not just about cells...

    Nad

  5. #15
    Andrey Prokopenko Faceless is a name known to all Faceless is a name known to all Faceless is a name known to all Faceless is a name known to all Faceless is a name known to all Faceless is a name known to all Faceless is a name known to all Faceless is a name known to all Faceless is a name known to all Faceless is a name known to all Faceless is a name known to all Faceless's Avatar
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    Re: video: Sentinel workshop with Kevin Gurr at EuroTek 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by nigelh  View Original Post
    Of course you may realise that most of us believed it already and subscribe to the "change 'em every year but otherwise leave 'em alone" school of thought. His remarks on damp on the cell faces matches some comments reportedly from the man at Vandergraph reported elsewhere very closely. Only on the internet do you get the conspiracy theories about cells being an evil plot to kill divers.

    KG has the background and experience to be worth listening to...
    ...but then I would say that wouldn't I?
    It's the Internet afer all , so yet another "conspiracy theory" is born every minite :)
    I wish I'd attend this presentation, but unfortunately due to extremely tight schedule I've missed it. Leigh & team have invited so many people of exceptional value to this truly great show that I was literally thorn apart between them
    So far I know about one serious 5-years study regarding cell characteristics made by DeepLife as a part of their commercial rebreather project.
    They generously have offered it to the public:
    http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or_files/D...udy_070329.pdf
    I assume you have attended Vandergraph presentation, could you please share opinion expressed at the presentation on this regard ?

  6. #16
    Brent - Narked at 90
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    Re: video: Sentinel workshop with Kevin Gurr at EuroTek 2008

    So, cells dont fail then?

    I just did a search on RBW with the term "Cell failure". Cell failures are far too prevailant to dismiss that fact out of hand.
    Some on here may have been present when John demonstrated cell tests at the NEC. Most interesting as even one that was brand new and removed from the bag was found duff.
    Is there anyone on here that wishes to stand up and state that cells do not fail prematurely (<12-18mnths)? I know many people who have returned their cells and received replacements from premature failures. APD are fairly good with that.
    An interesting conversation for me was one with a defence contractor who enlightened me on the number of cells returned by the Royal Navy.

    Just to be contentious, APD has different ideas on calibration frequency;
    Quote Originally Posted by APD
    Since the launch of the Vision electronics we've been able to see from the dive files that quite a few divers don't calibrate often enough. Here at the factory - and there's about 8 of us dive the units - we all calibrate just before every dive- always have. Some divers outside the factory calibrate once per day and I think that's fine but I wouldn't do it less than that.
    I actually think that many of the divers that seem prone to cell errors
    are the ones that don't calibrate too often.

    I've seen it where the guy hadn't calibrated for about 8 dives and got
    cell warnings. To be fair to him, it's what he'd been told by his instructor
    and it's obviously been taken up with his instructor.

    I would like to believe that very few divers run their cells to 2 years.
    If they do they are very likely to see a failure while they are diving -
    fine if they are aware enough to notice the solenoid is open longer than
    normal and aware enough to question why a cell isn't moving when they breathe.
    Ok these are things that divers should be looking for anyway and one cell
    misbehaving isn't necessarily a problem but when you get two go down on
    the same dive then it starts getting serious.

    I have covered this before: cells fail for a number of reasons but
    assuming you've got a good one and it's going to last into old age:
    The life of the cell is dependent on the pressure of oxygen it is
    exposed to.
    I think you will find a number of people with differing opinions. Dont judge them, judge for yourself.

    Lastly, if its not the cells, and always the leccies - if you ever get failures, bad readings or voting logic kicking in, better return your unit. Its duff.
    Copying skips understanding. Understanding is how you grow. You have to understand why something works or why something is how it is. When you copy it, you miss that. WWW.NARKEDAT90.COM
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  7. #17
    RBW Member jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk's Avatar
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    Re: video: Sentinel workshop with Kevin Gurr at EuroTek 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by nigelh  View Original Post
    KG has the background and experience to be worth listening to...
    ...but then I would say that wouldn't I?

    I listened but I do not have to follow or believe it until I convince myself. I do not think KG will take care of my families needs after my demise so the only prudent way forward is to question and understand.

    John

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