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Thread: 8000 Feet, One Spool and One Total Loop Failure

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    Hans C. Kaspersetz luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok's Avatar
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    8000 Feet, One Spool and One Total Loop Failure

    Hello boys and girls,

    It is time for another installment of the Hans and Patrick show. He and I were making a round trip traverse from Naharon to Mayan Blue to pickup a spool when on the return leg he suffered a total loop failure on the KISS Classic.

    If you are interested in reading the account here it is: Total Loop Failure During a Cave Dive.

    As always, your comments and criticism are welcome. If you want more information, leave a comment and one of us will answer.

    Hans

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    So Cal Tech Diver aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie's Avatar
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    Meg

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    Re: 8000 Feet, One Spool and One Total Loop Failure

    I thought a KISS came with a BOV as standard config. Did Patrick remove it?
    Andrew Ainslie

    Buhlmann = Bend and Mend
    VPM/RGBM = Mend and Bend
    GF 35-50/70-85 = Mend and Mend

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    Hans C. Kaspersetz luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok's Avatar
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    Re: 8000 Feet, One Spool and One Total Loop Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by aainslie  View Original Post
    I thought a KISS came with a BOV as standard config. Did Patrick remove it?
    Andrew,

    Great question. The BOV is in place. I asked Patrick the same question. He he never attempted to use it. He normally dives a Megalodon and it doesn't have a BOV, so his instinctual response to use the BOV wasn't there. He immediately went for his BO tank. This would have been normal operating procedure on our other dives.

    He has about 150 hours on the Meg, 20 hours on the Inspiration and 13 on the KISS. So that is 170 hours with no BOV. I guess there is some serious hard wiring of muscle memory.

    Plus after some addition discussion, his feeling was it was more efficient to go directly to the BO tank. He wasn't in a position that he needed to breath immediately.

    Hans
    Last edited by luxrok; 29th July 2008 at 17:18. Reason: Added more information.

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    So Cal Tech Diver aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie's Avatar
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    Re: 8000 Feet, One Spool and One Total Loop Failure

    I'm a huge fan of BOV's and don't understand why anyone would dive a rebreather without one. This adds another datapoint to my feeling of why they're so important. What if he'd aspirated water and was coughing? Taken a CO2 hit? Any of several other scenarios where he needed an immediate breath? Then the luxury of time wouldn't have been there.

    Sorry, I don't want to sound too critical. But if I were you guys I'd be adding BOV's to ALL your rebreathers. Especially after this. With choking, CO2 or something else that didn't allow him the luxury of holding his breath this outcome could have been very different.... all because he didn't have the muscle memory to use an excellent safety device installed and working.
    Andrew Ainslie

    Buhlmann = Bend and Mend
    VPM/RGBM = Mend and Bend
    GF 35-50/70-85 = Mend and Mend

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    RBW Member david_1 is an unknown quantity at this point david_1's Avatar
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    Re: 8000 Feet, One Spool and One Total Loop Failure

    cool post... thanks luxrok hope your next dive is less eventfull

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    Re: 8000 Feet, One Spool and One Total Loop Failure

    Thanks for sharing that event. For someone headed off to CCR Cave this fall, it was very enlightening. Glad you guys handled it and got out unscathed.

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    Hans C. Kaspersetz luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok has a spectacular aura about luxrok's Avatar
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    Re: 8000 Feet, One Spool and One Total Loop Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by aainslie  View Original Post
    I'm a huge fan of BOV's... Sorry, I don't want to sound too critical...
    Andrew,

    I have a Golem BOV on my rig. I am a big fan of it also. However, I have never used it below 130fsw. I am going to setup a test dive to try it at depth and see how it works out.

    I don't believe you are being too critical. Like asses and elbows we all have our opinions, and some of us are more direct then others. I agree with you on this topic. Patrick doesn't. He believes he is better off without it, and that his reaction was the most efficient at the time. I tend to agree with him that he did the right thing for him at the time.

    I guess that is the luxury we have of each diving our own unit.

    Hopefully, your position will help others to decide to join us on the dark side.

    When I get a chance to bailout to my BOV bellow 60 meters, I will let you know how it goes and how the WOB was.

    Hans

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    RBW Member Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26's Avatar
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    Re: 8000 Feet, One Spool and One Total Loop Failure

    I don't think we should change suspect and talk about BOVs since this was already talked over a thousand times.
    To have or not to have a BOV in this incident, as shown, made no difference!

    cheers
    Patrick

    Quote Originally Posted by aainslie  View Original Post
    I'm a huge fan of BOV's and don't understand why anyone would dive a rebreather without one. This adds another datapoint to my feeling of why they're so important. What if he'd aspirated water and was coughing? Taken a CO2 hit? Any of several other scenarios where he needed an immediate breath? Then the luxury of time wouldn't have been there.

    Sorry, I don't want to sound too critical. But if I were you guys I'd be adding BOV's to ALL your rebreathers. Especially after this. With choking, CO2 or something else that didn't allow him the luxury of holding his breath this outcome could have been very different.... all because he didn't have the muscle memory to use an excellent safety device installed and working.

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    RBW Member Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26 is a jewel in the rough Mephisto26's Avatar
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    Re: 8000 Feet, One Spool and One Total Loop Failure

    Not one way works for all and I can't always tell people to do what I do, the reason for that is, that I'm a full time diving instructor since 7 years and do nothing else all day! So of course my reaction is different compared to another person all though maybe very experienced. I don't want to start and give a list of all the things I did in deep, solo, wreck, ice, ccr and whatever else diving but is just to show that there are different realities.

    When Rainhold Messner climbed the 14 highest peeks of this planet everybody told him it is suicidal, guess what he is still alive...we are all differnet and unique and while most rules apply to a big mass of humans, some don't.

    Keep your loops closed but your minds open...

    cheers

    P.S.: I should have been less lazy and put nitrox in my tanks!


    Quote Originally Posted by luxrok  View Original Post
    Andrew,

    I have a Golem BOV on my rig. I am a big fan of it also. However, I have never used it below 130fsw. I am going to setup a test dive to try it at depth and see how it works out.

    I don't believe you are being too critical. Like asses and elbows we all have our opinions, and some of us are more direct then others. I agree with you on this topic. Patrick doesn't. He believes he is better off without it, and that his reaction was the most efficient at the time. I tend to agree with him that he did the right thing for him at the time.

    I guess that is the luxury we have of each diving our own unit.

    Hopefully, your position will help others to decide to join us on the dark side.

    When I get a chance to bailout to my BOV bellow 60 meters, I will let you know how it goes and how the WOB was.

    Hans

  10. #10
    So Cal Tech Diver aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie's Avatar
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    Re: 8000 Feet, One Spool and One Total Loop Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by luxrok  View Original Post
    Andrew,

    I have a Golem BOV on my rig. I am a big fan of it also. However, I have never used it below 130fsw. I am going to setup a test dive to try it at depth and see how it works out.
    Hey Hans,

    This is a HIGHLY worthwhile exercise. I test the BOV 3 times on every dive - while dry, on the surface, and at depth. Both to verify that it works and to build muscle memory.
    Andrew Ainslie

    Buhlmann = Bend and Mend
    VPM/RGBM = Mend and Bend
    GF 35-50/70-85 = Mend and Mend

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