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Thread: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question

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    RBW Member Mikel-Deko is a jewel in the rough Mikel-Deko is a jewel in the rough Mikel-Deko is a jewel in the rough Mikel-Deko is a jewel in the rough Mikel-Deko is a jewel in the rough Mikel-Deko is a jewel in the rough Mikel-Deko is a jewel in the rough Mikel-Deko is a jewel in the rough Mikel-Deko's Avatar
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    CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question

    Hi,
    I've just finnished to read the book. I wanted to read it again because with two kids jumping arround it is not the best way to undestand thinks, but...

    Maybe is my fealing but i don't think that the best solution for some problems in CCR trimix is going to OC as Mel sais in the book.

    I think that for air dives, i mean maximum of 40 mtrs, it could be a goog solution, but for Trimix dives, i don't think so.

    I think that a good SCR tecnique with a good gas compromise is the best solution for most of the incidents with CCR Trimix.

    Obviously i'm not a expecialist in CCR Trimix but i've made a few deep dives and i've been thinking a lot about it.

    I remember a good thread with Dave ****** about "Hot Diluyent" that make me think about it.

    Please, any commentary will be welcome.

    Best

    Mikel

    Happy hollidays !!!

  2. #2
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    Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikel-Deko  View Original Post
    Hi,
    I've just finnished to read the book. I wanted to read it again because with two kids jumping arround it is not the best way to undestand thinks, but...

    Maybe is my fealing but i don't think that the best solution for some problems in CCR trimix is going to OC as Mel sais in the book.

    I think that for air dives, i mean maximum of 40 mtrs, it could be a goog solution, but for Trimix dives, i don't think so.

    I think that a good SCR tecnique with a good gas compromise is the best solution for most of the incidents with CCR Trimix.

    Obviously i'm not a expecialist in CCR Trimix but i've made a few deep dives and i've been thinking a lot about it.

    I remember a good thread with Dave ****** about "Hot Diluyent" that make me think about it.

    Please, any commentary will be welcome.

    Best

    Mikel

    Happy hollidays !!!

    Every instructor/agency has their own opinion..

    From ANDI's perspective on depths that require Trimix, OC in general is the LAST option that you should choose.. I haven't read Mel's book so I can't comment on specifics, but other than a total loop failure, a good and fast loop flush, followed by SCR mode should be the first choice IMHO.

    To this date I HAVE NEVER run into a situation where I would bail to OC first, and the deeper I go the farther OC choice becomes an option..



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    Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question

    Scrubber breakthrough would also need quick switch to OC. In general it is safest to go OC if you find yourself in difficulties. Then just try to figure out what is wrong and if youi find the reason, fix it and finish the dive on CC.

    JH

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    Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question

    Quote Originally Posted by jhaaja  View Original Post
    Scrubber breakthrough would also need quick switch to OC. In general it is safest to go OC if you find yourself in difficulties. Then just try to figure out what is wrong and if youi find the reason, fix it and finish the dive on CC.

    JH
    Proper flushing will give good gas as fast or faster as OC would, and probably be more effective since you would have to hold you breath to switch to OC (increasing your co2 load) or have the increased WOB trying to breathe through a BOV.. (the attached second will always breath worse than the primary gas path)

    BTW I HAVE had co2 issues deep and staying ON the loop gave me alot more options.. FLushing works fine when done correctly...



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  5. #5
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    Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question

    Quote Originally Posted by jradomski  View Original Post
    Every instructor/agency has their own opinion..

    From ANDI's perspective on depths that require Trimix, OC in general is the LAST option that you should choose.. I haven't read Mel's book so I can't comment on specifics, but other than a total loop failure, a good and fast loop flush, followed by SCR mode should be the first choice IMHO.

    To this date I HAVE NEVER run into a situation where I would bail to OC first, and the deeper I go the farther OC choice becomes an option..
    Yes, it is what i was teach and it is what i think.
    It is not so easy to close the dsv, take your bailout and breathe instead make a good loop flush and see what is wrong.

    Best
    Mikel

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    Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question

    Quote Originally Posted by jradomski  View Original Post
    Proper flushing will give good gas as fast or faster as OC would, and probably be more effective since you would have to hold you breath to switch to OC (increasing your co2 load) or have the increased WOB trying to breathe through a BOV.. (the attached second will always breath worse than the primary gas path)

    BTW I HAVE had co2 issues deep and staying ON the loop gave me alot more options.. FLushing works fine when done correctly...
    But after flushing you need to go OC anyway, or use open loop. Open loop is quite hard work at least on YBOD. The ADV is quite tight to suck. Good points anyway.

    JH

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    Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question

    Quote Originally Posted by jhaaja  View Original Post
    Scrubber breakthrough would also need quick switch to OC. In general it is safest to go OC if you find yourself in difficulties. Then just try to figure out what is wrong and if youi find the reason, fix it and finish the dive on CC.

    JH
    I don't think so. It is not so easy when you have a problem.

    Even a good loop flush gives you time to think ...

    Best

    Mikel

  8. #8
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    Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question

    Quote Originally Posted by jhaaja  View Original Post
    But after flushing you need to go OC anyway, or use open loop. Open loop is quite hard work at least on YBOD. The ADV is quite tight to suck. Good points anyway.

    JH
    I only see two scenarios when you need to go OC.
    Hipercapnia and something broken in the loop.
    If the hipercapnia is because the scrubber is over even then you can try SCR but it not sure you can stay in the loop.

    If you breathe is going out the loop because something is broken (loop, cannister, dsv, etc) then you need to go OC.

    In any other circunstances, you can stay in the loop.

    Best
    Mikel

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    Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikel-Deko  View Original Post
    I only see two scenarios when you need to go OC.
    Hipercapnia and something broken in the loop.
    If the hipercapnia is because the scrubber is over even then you can try SCR but it not sure you can stay in the loop.

    If you breathe is going out the loop because something is broken (loop, cannister, dsv, etc) then you need to go OC.

    In any other circunstances, you can stay in the loop.

    Best
    Mikel
    If the scrubber is not working you can not use scr. Your CO2 levels will start to rise and you end up in difficulties. For scr you need a working scrubber.

    In most cases it is usually the safest solution to go oc for a few breaths and asses the situation before going back on the loop.

    JH

  10. #10
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    Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question

    Quote Originally Posted by jhaaja  View Original Post
    But after flushing you need to go OC anyway, or use open loop. Open loop is quite hard work at least on YBOD. The ADV is quite tight to suck. Good points anyway.

    JH

    if the scrubber is not TOTALLY failed.. you should be able to get 2-3 breaths on each flush of fresh gas, just doing this for a few minutes while deep can save a significant amount of gas and give you much more leeway later on in the dive.. Even with "breakthough" there should be some co2 absorbing capacity for a while..

    Breakthough just means it exceeded a specific level.. when you get near the end of scrubber life you still have some usable chemical, but its not enough to CONTINUALLY breath the same gas..



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    Last edited by jradomski; 20th December 2007 at 09:38.
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