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Thread: Training agencies not policing their instructors

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    Training agencies not policing their instructors

    Dr Mike said:

    "Clearly (and this has been proven to me over and over again) we cant rely on the training agencies to police their instructors."

    Isn't this a sad indictment?

    I have arrived at the same conclusion, and I fear that divers will get hurt because of this, and that our excuse of self-regulation is not going to cut the mustard for much longer.

    It seems inevitable that governments will interfere, and that will not necessarily make anything better.

    We really should get our act together, and the sooner the better.

    rgds
    monty

  2. #2
    Nicholas Smith Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo's Avatar
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    Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors

    Governments spend billions of dollars on teachers' salaries, but have yet to find a way of defining what is a bad teacher - or a good one. It's very hard to know whether the problem is the workman or the cloth. The attempts to pay teachers according to exam results have run into all kinds of troubles, not least of which being teachers invigilating exams helping their students to cheat. Unlike governments, training agencies have a business to run, and students getting failed in exams are bad for that business: the problem for them is far harder than for governments, which don't have to make a profit - and agencies have far fewer resources to police the problem.

    At the end of a course, you have to ask yourself whether you are worth the qualification you have just received. Some agencies ask you to sign a form that says you believe you are safe using the rebreather you have just qualified on, without supervision. If you're honest with yourself you don't feel very safe at first: I certainly didn't. It would really help if someone, like RBW, put together a generic list of things you should be able to do at the end of the course. If you don't feel you can do those things you have a duty to yourself to go find another teacher and do a brush-up course or a whole new course from the beginning: after all, it's your life you're talking about. The rebreather community is never going to be able to control agencies' training policies, but it can help advising recent graduates what they need to know to have a fair chance of diving a rebreather without becoming a tragic statistic.

    At least as important is maintaining those skills. Servicemen are required, once a year, to do a Battle Fitness Test. Perhaps clubs should introduce a BFT for divers: a bunch of skills that divers demonstrate once a year to assure themselves and their oppos that they have the skills to be safe to dive with. Anyone?
    Last edited by Abbo; 1st November 2007 at 15:55.

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    Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors

    There are huge differences between the agencies, that is for certain.
    In some the monkey business comes from the top.
    And RB manufacturers have responded in the past, by not allowing the agencies
    to make ITs and even instructors without review and not accepting
    instructors/ITs just because someone issued a card to them.
    Steam Machines and Innerspace are examples here.

    On the other hand some agencies take any complaint seriously and take care of problems
    almost immediately. HQ coming down on the instructor, reviewing his classes,
    fixing the problem.
    ANDI is the example here. the standards are not much different than some of the others,
    the importance given to them is. Same goes for their gas purity standards.

    Training is a very serious issue, and some agencies as well as some manufacturers
    are fully aware of it and handle it accordingly.

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    Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors

    If you want to comment on a PADI instructor [Ray & Dolphin can be taught by PADI] then you need the instructors full name and, where possible, number. Without these they WILL NOT action any complaints.

    I overheard another PADI instructor blatantly telling his OW class the wrong thing, and I contacted Bristol to see if they would question anyone passing on that particular day in the SE of England, and they weren't interested.

    So a class got badly taught and PADI didn't give a flying snorkel.

    I then told PADI that I would no longer teach for them and instructed them to cancel my membership immediately. I had standards as an instructor, and if the organisation I qualified with are prepared to have lower ones then I won't teach for them.

    Diving is a bloody dangerous sport, if the agencies won't police it then bad training will happen.

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    Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by Abbo  View Original Post
    At least as important is maintaining those skills. Servicemen are required, once a year, to do a Battle Fitness Test. Perhaps clubs should introduce a BFT for divers: a bunch of skills that divers demonstrate once a year to assure themselves and their oppos that they have the skills to be safe to dive with. Anyone?
    I regulary practice OOA drills when I dive OC, and I have surprised a CCR buddy who told me that her hubby has cue cards for her [high pO2, low pO2 etc] that he throws at her during a dive by giving her a drill to do. Practice of skills is important, and since I stopped teaching I do it when I get the chance as if I don't I'll feel rusty.

    The thing is what set of kit do you do skills on? If your club is mainly OC do you just do OC skills? Or only RB skills?

    PADI's 'Scuba Review' could be a starting point as it has 18 [20 now I think] skills that are done for divers that have had a fallow period.

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    Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by Freef  View Original Post
    If you want to comment on a PADI instructor [Ray & Dolphin can be taught by PADI] then you need the instructors full name and, where possible, number. Without these they WILL NOT action any complaints.

    I overheard another PADI instructor blatantly telling his OW class the wrong thing, and I contacted Bristol to see if they would question anyone passing on that particular day in the SE of England, and they weren't interested.

    So a class got badly taught and PADI didn't give a flying snorkel.

    I then told PADI that I would no longer teach for them and instructed them to cancel my membership immediately. I had standards as an instructor, and if the organisation I qualified with are prepared to have lower ones then I won't teach for them.

    Diving is a bloody dangerous sport, if the agencies won't police it then bad training will happen.
    Kuddos to you man! Have some green!
    I wish all of the dive instructors had as much backbone. Maybe the agencies would tighten things up and make it safer for all of us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwinter  View Original Post
    I could just be blowing smoke out my butt.
    Quote Originally Posted by kwinter  View Original Post
    And note the wisdom from DSix36
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  7. #7
    Andy Favata CCR-Wrecker has a spectacular aura about CCR-Wrecker has a spectacular aura about CCR-Wrecker has a spectacular aura about CCR-Wrecker has a spectacular aura about CCR-Wrecker has a spectacular aura about CCR-Wrecker's Avatar
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    Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsix36  View Original Post
    Kuddos to you man! Have some green!
    I wish all of the dive instructors had as much backbone. Maybe the agencies would tighten things up and make it safer for all of us.
    It's a nice thought but, I fear the agency would find another to fill the vacancy. When they did fill the spot, I'd think it likely the successor would be less qualifed.

    I teach OC trimix. My simple criteria for "pass or fail" is : would I trust the prospective diver to take my daughter diving? a friend? my wife...wait scratch that

    Andy

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    Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors

    Great post Abbo, well said.

    Trouble I've seen here in Australia, it seems the norm that if the agency your involved with won't let you do whatever it is you want (PADI DM who hasn't been insured / renewed for 5 years wants to be a rebreather instructor on a unit he's dived once? Take someone from an OC instructor, to Inspo diver, to Inspo instructor in a week?) then all you have to to is find another agency that lets you do what you want to do.... It's just a case of shopping around, there are plenty of agencies out there, one of them will let you do what you want...

    Without going into restriction of trade issues, my personal feeling is that the dive industry as a whole should get together and organise a set of minimum standards for each course, that everyone must follow... trouble is, policing it, how would you manage a black-ban on a certain agency?

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    Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by CCR-Wrecker  View Original Post
    It's a nice thought but, I fear the agency would find another to fill the vacancy. When they did fill the spot, I'd think it likely the successor would be less qualifed.

    I teach OC trimix. My simple criteria for "pass or fail" is : would I trust the prospective diver to take my daughter diving? a friend? my wife...wait scratch that

    Andy
    As much as I hate to admit it, You are most likely correct. I still admire Freef for taking the stand though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwinter  View Original Post
    I could just be blowing smoke out my butt.
    Quote Originally Posted by kwinter  View Original Post
    And note the wisdom from DSix36
    MY ADVICE AND POSTS ARE WORTH EXACTLY WHAT YOU PAID FOR THEM!!!!!!
    POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS SO YESTERDAY AND I AM DONE WITH IT!!!!!

  10. #10
    Supporting Member Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36's Avatar
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    Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by sadave  View Original Post
    Without going into restriction of trade issues, my personal feeling is that the dive industry as a whole should get together and organise a set of minimum standards for each course, that everyone must follow...
    I would vote for that in a heartbeat. I am IANTD certified and still trying to figure out what Mod1, Mod2, Mod3 etc. are
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwinter  View Original Post
    I could just be blowing smoke out my butt.
    Quote Originally Posted by kwinter  View Original Post
    And note the wisdom from DSix36
    MY ADVICE AND POSTS ARE WORTH EXACTLY WHAT YOU PAID FOR THEM!!!!!!
    POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS SO YESTERDAY AND I AM DONE WITH IT!!!!!

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