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Thread: market response to new Cis Mk6

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    market response to new Cis Mk6

    Hey gang,

    wanted to fine-tune some of the talk on the forthcoming Mk6, and open discussion on a few topics of interest relating to this, and any new production rebreather:

    1. with the explosion of short production run units (10's to 100's) over the last few years, largely as a result of lack of choices out there, what are thoughts out there on how our very small, niche market will react to another full-production unit? Are we saturated already?

    2. What price point does everyone think can be successfully entered into market with to reach a larger distribution? How many of you would jump ship, or buy ANOTHER unit?

    3. with such a current small target population (rec/tec and scientific), if there is a push towards 'recreational' specific..what types of innovations are we expecting that will ensure this unit, or any other future unit, will provide a safer platform for the masses, which in general want more for less? (this ties into training regimes, etc)

    discussion appreciated.

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    Re: market response to new Cis Mk6

    Interesting question....

    I'm inclined to say that if sales and profit are their goal they should target the Inspiration, make an OTS CL unit with full electronics, full CE approval and backed up independant testing for the paranoid out there (us :) )

    Make it light, field servicable yet adapatable and massively capable- that then counters the 'Boris and KISS.

    Lastly make is "Diver Proof" (the most difficult attribute), robust, droppable, floodable and recoverable. Should then satisfy the current Meg customers.


    Even if they achieve all of that the last thing is acceptability.... they have some backup in the reputation of the Mk5 but what is that worth in sales? The APD Evolution has sold on the back of the Inspiration and the SK on the reputation of the CK, it certainly helped but how much?

    I think it will be interesting to have full competition in Europe for the Inspiration, currently there is none (Non-CE North American kit is great but doesn't compete on an even footing over here)

    Of course all of this assumes the vapourware materialises ;)

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    Re: market response to new Cis Mk6

    It'll be interesting to see what their biz plan and objectives are. Sounds like there is private investment monies involved, hence a pursuing a profit will be a priority. I'm just not entirely sold that the market is there currently to make millions on a $7-$10k unit. will be interesting

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    Re: market response to new Cis Mk6

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Field  View Original Post
    Interesting question....

    I'm inclined to say that if sales and profit are their goal they should target the Inspiration, make an OTS CL unit with full electronics, full CE approval and backed up independant testing for the paranoid out there (us :) )

    Make it light, field servicable yet adapatable and massively capable- that then counters the 'Boris and KISS.

    Lastly make is "Diver Proof" (the most difficult attribute), robust, droppable, floodable and recoverable. Should then satisfy the current Meg customers.


    Even if they achieve all of that the last thing is acceptability.... they have some backup in the reputation of the Mk5 but what is that worth in sales? The APD Evolution has sold on the back of the Inspiration and the SK on the reputation of the CK, it certainly helped but how much?

    I think it will be interesting to have full competition in Europe for the Inspiration, currently there is none (Non-CE North American kit is great but doesn't compete on an even footing over here)

    Of course all of this assumes the vapourware materialises ;)

    Everything fine, however I would also think to something easy to travel with.
    Restrictions and cost are spiking in the last times.

    Nad

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    Re: market response to new Cis Mk6

    Quote Originally Posted by OceanOpportunity  View Original Post
    I'm just not entirely sold that the market is there currently to make millions on a $7-$10k unit. will be interesting
    Well there is A market.... but do APD have a strangle hold?

    Its like any business, you have to be able to quantify your gains, the Boris is the most recent newcomer, they obviously thought they could sell enough machines to make money on their development costs, I wonder if they did?

    I think any new entry in the market would have to take a reasonable slice of market share off APD and possible Jetsam, as well as sales off its own back to make money.

    There seems to be a constant trickle of new designs appearing (Titan and rEvo to be available shortly for example) I wonder if these new entries are really profit driven or because the designers see nothing compatible to their needs available, if thats the case why do they go into full production? I guess Paul could have settled for a KISS but he designed the rEvo instead.

    Some of these are probably reasons why some designes appear and disappear quickly, just look at all the stillborn rebreather companies!

    I'd wager the most active market is Accessories- Narked@90 stuff, Shearwaters, VR3's etc, certainly money and progress to be made on that front.

    BEN

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    Re: market response to new Cis Mk6

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Field  View Original Post
    Well there is A market.... but do APD have a strangle hold?

    Its like any business, you have to be able to quantify your gains, the Boris is the most recent newcomer, they obviously thought they could sell enough machines to make money on their development costs, I wonder if they did?
    BEN
    A good idea is to have at least two units to product and sale:
    BigOne and LittleOne (like APD, Jetsam,Meg) but at different costs between them.
    They could then pay the same development costs and reach more divers.

    Nad

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    Re: market response to new Cis Mk6

    Pricing.
    The market leader generally sets the initial price you can get for something. Customers will pay a bit more for gizmos, qudos and good salesmanship, but they rarely pay 20% to 30% more for like for like equipment. This is probably the difficulty for the Boris.
    let's face it you can dive them all, they all work some of the time, most get you back from a dive most of the time etc etc. Who has the most out there working most of the time, the market leader why would one pay more that that.

    Local servicing has a value but who buys equipment expecting to fail.

    David

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    Re: market response to new Cis Mk6

    I would imagine any new unit on the market will be adopted by mature existing users. Divers who have tried everything else and want to see whats new. It would have to be quite advanced in its functionality and definately an eCCR. Something simple and Mechanical will be looked as a copy of the KISS and only rouse small interest.

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    Re: market response to new Cis Mk6

    Target Market vs Product packaging, its an old old story.

    If you look at OC, the small percentage of divers going deep use the same stuff (essentially) as your splat diver does on a weekend bimble in 15m. Apeks regs, faber tanks blah blah. The wings etc are even pretty common.

    CCR, if you're aiming at divers who do 'exploration' grade diving, its a very small subset of the CCR population. This is why the Boris is struggling to hit massive numbers, they're just not targeting the volume market.

    Of course there'll always be those for whom price isnt an issue and I can only envy them :)

    As someone else said, the trick is a modularised approach allowing you to market two units with a large degree of component commonality so your volume unit can subsidise the exploration grade (niche) unit.

  10. #10
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    Re: market response to new Cis Mk6

    Quote Originally Posted by EBT  View Original Post
    CCR, if you're aiming at divers who do 'exploration' grade diving, its a very small subset of the CCR population. This is why the Boris is struggling to hit massive numbers, they're just not targeting the volume market.

    As someone else said, the trick is a modularised approach allowing you to market two units with a large degree of component commonality so your volume unit can subsidise the exploration grade (niche) unit.
    Ah, the long awaited "Weekend Warrior Boris" ONLY 3hours in the scrubber and ONLY built to withstand direct attacks by tactical nukes, I hear the case will be made of Unobtainium.

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