[manxdiver856]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Ian your facts are wrong

It was the Ouroboros (not the sentinel) that was presented to the UK navy tender and boris only lost out because the navy felt that CCRB infrastructure too small to handle multi million pound contract

I beleive the real reason for the ouroboros no getting selected was "too much like the current model for it to be an easy sell to the men"

I am sure ccrb would have increased production capacity if it was necessary for such a large order.

Steve

[Nad]

Quote: (Originally Posted by iain-hsm)

Again I ask: How many Navy's in the world have bought this product?

One more time? So I ask you again did you realized that YOU wrote about the Sentinel as a military project?

Are you writing for any reason?

Nad

[Nad]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver)

Nad, my friend, you mean Special Farces yeah?

Cheers,

Dave.

Oh yes of course!

Nad

[silent running]

Since Iain didn't started off using words like "suck", I don't see a reason to ramp things up by assuming the worst. IMHO, it's not a good idea to jump to conclusions in print.

I think some requirements that the military have for adopting a CCR are relevant, like scrubber performance and WOB. While others, like only having 2 lights on a HUD-green for go, red for no-are not so useful to us civilians. But one thing seems sure, militaries test rigorously and have greater resources, especially human resources, to conduct those tests than manufacturers, that's the value of military test data, when it's available. -Andy

[Decodiver]

Quote: (Originally Posted by iain-hsm)

Dave.
With all your (Quote) "extensive experience" I have taken today from your website page 4 "Features background and overview" you quote of the Sentinel M (Military) option.

Again I ask: How many Navy's in the world have bought this product?

Hi Iain,

That is a document provided by CCRB, perhaps you should ask them? I think it shows a model that is available for purchase by the military or is intended for the military market. Did they not display the Sentinel for the first time at a military show?

I'm also confused as I think the first person to bring up the mention of the military Sentinel was your goodself, not me!

If something is aimed at a military market, should it not be named a military version or perhaps you mean that one needs to wait to have actually sold to a Navy to do that.

I think the Danish military have bought some Ouroboros's incidentally, Rasmus should be able to confirm.

If you are saying that just because something is military supplied that it is good, then err, sorry, you have different experience than me and probably different experience from a lot of todays poor sods who are doing a magnificent job in Iraq and Afghanistan with not-optimal kit (at least that's what my mates serving in those two theatres tell me!).

The reverse of that is that just because something does not win a military contract doesn't make it crap either.

I am talking generally about military equipment and not taking a dig at any specific fields like CCR, your area of expertise, hence my mention of the SA80, I could add to that list, radios that don't work, bayonets that don't fit, boots that fall apart, bayonets that melt when the weapon is fired extensively etc etc.

People need to lighten up here, I have an Ouroboros and am very happy with it and I will be getting my Sentinel in a few weeks time and very happy with the prospect of getting to grips with that too.

I have had nothing but exemplary customer support and customer service from CCRB, that is why I was happy to confirm my order for the 'Baby Boris' 18 months ago. The reason being I discussed the project through with CCRB staff and was happy to be a part of this new and exciting piece of kit.

If you don't like them, and I respect fully your knowledge and experience gained in your specialist field, then that is your right.

If you do like them, then I apologise for my misunderstanding as you do come across a bit anti?

My point is that military purchasing as a benchmark, is not, in my humble experience, a reason to, or indeed not to, buy a CCR for the civilian market.

Is it just me but I couldn't care less whether they sell to a military market or not.

I'm still confused though Iain, what is actually your point, with your experience, if you are trying to say something valuable then I want to hear it, I am just not sure of what you are angling at?

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

[Nad]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver)

I'm also confused as I think the first person to bring up the mention of the military Sentinel was your goodself, not me!

Quote:

People need to lighten up here, I have an Ouroboros and am very happy with it and I will be getting my Sentinel in a few weeks time and very happy with the prospect of getting to grips with it too.

I have had nothing but exemplary customer support and customer service from CCRB, that is why I was happy to confirm my order for the 'Baby Boris' 18 months ago. The reason being I discussed the project through with CCRB staff and was happy to be a part of this new and exciting piece of kit.

Same for me!

Quote:

Is it just me but I couldn't care less whether they sell to a military market or not.

No we are at least 2!

Nad

[Drmike]

Quote: (Originally Posted by iain-hsm)

Mike
Your words, these are your words above Mike, not mine. I have no axe, just maybe too sharp a pencil (for some) besides both the military both here and the US are into equal opportunites and actively encourage small companies.

sharp pencil is not an issue - as long as it has a rubber (eraser for our non english speaking american friends) on one end to correct mistakes Fact is when it comes to large tenders (as Im sure you know) - they often have strict criteria as to what sort of company actually qualify. I believe you are fully aware of this.

Quote:

For example Kevin Juergensen (Juergensen Marine) were awarded the US Navy Mark16 Mod 2 contract,

Time to use that eraser again. Juergensen Marine wasnt awarded the military contract. That was awarded to the sizeable and track record company Carleton Technologies (who would therefore have to (and can) meet the infrastructure req.) , they subcontracted some of the work (the electronics) to the newly formed company Juergensen Defense.

And FWIW the total contract was half the value of the UK one and only some of that money will go to JD

Quote:

Also Prism (your comment above) have won contracts with Paragon Space Development both hardly huge companies but non the less they have military contracts.

And how many prisms are being used by any navy?

even if they have - so what? Each tender req. is different. Mil needs are different.

Quote:

So back to the Sentinal I now ask "What Military has bought the “military” version? Please name them, just one (1) even, name just one military customer that has bought this “military” rebreather. iain

none. same number who have bought an inspiration or a Prism or a Meg or ....... Any company that makes a product that 'could' be of interest to the military would be quite stupid not to offer it to them (given the potential order size), heck the Trojan you refered to was a black covered YBOD I recall seeing pics of more than 7 years ago. Just because someone calls it a military version - doesnt mean its anything more than them showing their product to the military in hope of raising interest - especially (as in this case with the senitinel) theres no contracts being offered anyway (at that time)

Military specs mean nothing unless you need the same specs. The YBOD failed to meet mil specs with its battery placement.. Big deal! does that mean the YBOD is sh1t? no.

I used to make EOD systems and sell them to the military (Explosive ordinance disposal system) basically machines to safely disarm bombs in laymans terms. We failed to get certain Mil contracts because we didnt meet some of the infrastructure or company track record requirements - didnt mean our product was sh1t...in fact 6 years later won a very sizeable contract - same product, just by then we met all the req.

[Drmike]

Quote: (Originally Posted by manxdiver856)

I beleive the real reason for the ouroboros no getting selected was "too much like the current model for it to be an easy sell to the men"

yeh Im sure thats it. After spending a lot of time and money callinga nd reviewing tenders The top brass was going to award the contract to CCRB but one of the grunts said 'oh but it looks a little like the MK16' and so the top brass rejected it In fact the call for tender likely included "must not look like the MK16" included in rest of specs

Technology/design wise the 2 units are totally different

Quote:

I am sure ccrb would have increased production capacity if it was necessary for such a large order.

I am sure if it was your 12 million pounds you were spending you would want to see evidence of infrastructure, mnf capability and track record before you part with any money. This is how the Military tender system often works. Show me FIRST (product/capability/infrastructure/track record) and then Ill give you the money.

12 million pounds is a lot of money to give to a new business.

[Drmike]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Humuhumu)

Hi,

I don't care if the navy has or not bought Sentinel or Boris rebreathers or any other machines ! Since I have used a DC55 I am convinced that the needs are not the same....

What I can see is a company like CCRB having probably from a business point of view, some issues with the sales numbers of the Boris. Obviously they have then taken some parts of this rebreather and have developed a new product with better chances in the recreational market.

I cannot believe a minute that they have redeveloped parts like the electronics for the Sentinel, that makes no sense, they have simply repackaged the product to sell it cheaper without frustrating the Boris customers...

exactly.

Market for Boris isnt huge - its a big unit designed for serious exploration dives.

The electronics are most likely the most expensive and hardest part of a unit to develop. Once thats done its easy to, and makes total commercial sense to, expoit that electronics in other designs of units that should apeal to the vastly larger recreational/tech market who maybe are more concerned with weight and travel and are prepared to sacrifice marginally higher WOB over Boris (but still better than most other units) for a ligher unit easier to travel with.....and so you have Sentinel.

[silent running]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

And how many prisms are being used by any navy?

none. same number who have bought an inspiration or a Prism or a Meg

Hi Mike, I agree with much of the rest of your posts on this thread and good on ya for breaking things down plain and simple like. But FYI, it is my understanding that the USN did actually buy/pay for some Prisms and some were supposedly used at the start of combat operations in Iraq in 03'. -Andy