Dangerous Azimuth scrubber

**Dave Sutton** · 7th December 2007, 14:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by caver99)

Hi Dave,

I just contacted them, lets see what the answer will be .
In the past the were always friendly and helpfull (to me...no idea in the US, maybe different distributor over there)

As far as I have more I will post it of course.

Greetings
Martin

In the US there is effectively no distributor, as the time for the SCC rebreather has come and gone. There are 'vestiges' of distributorship, but I cannot believe that a new one has been sold in (years?) here. I was involved with the original representation of the rig here, and in its day it was a very interesting system... full of potential to evolve to a great CCR. Sadly that never happened save for 'amateur' conversions (some off which are excellent.... I still think it's a GREAT platform). Bottom line though is that there's no real support here for the rig. The scrubber thing needs to be addressed at the manufacturers level. Does anyone know the CE process for recall of life support equipment that is CE approved and then proves to have a design flaw that requires remediation? Simple solution is to use a Micropore scrubber. And really... the rig has not been troublesome in the field when used to it's design level. As a SCC rig the small 'potential' bypass is really probably not an issue. When converted to a CCR and used deeper.... well, that's not what it was designed to do, is it?

Just dunno... I'll test the three cans I have here as soon as I get a second. Be interesting to take a broader sample.

Dave

***caveseeker7*** · 7th December 2007, 16:57

Couple of people now referred to the problem as a design flaw.
Isn't it more of a manufacturing flaw, spot welding instead of a continuous weld?

PaulTG2 · 7th December 2007, 17:39

Hello, If the drawings sent to manufacturing showed spot welds it was a design problem, if they showed continuous welds and the production tream spot welded then it was a manufacturing problem. Either way the main company has an issue. --p

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Couple of people now referred to the problem as a design flaw.
Isn't it more of a manufacturing flaw, spot welding instead of a continuous weld?

**Dave Sutton** · 7th December 2007, 17:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Couple of people now referred to the problem as a design flaw.
Isn't it more of a manufacturing flaw, spot welding instead of a continuous weld?

You DESIGN IN a spot weld where a continuous weld is appropriate and it's a *design* flaw.

You DESIGN IN a spot weld where it would be *appropriate* and it's then *badly welded* then it's a manufacturing flaw.

This is clearly a *design* flaw. The welds are *well done* and are not failing.

Sutton

TPAD · 7th December 2007, 17:54

Hi
I was amazed when i opened mine up , you would think that a life support system would be tested before resale.
i took photos of the tacks before i welded them back up. if i can figure out how to put them on this site , i'll post them up.
also i think i'll send them to OMG / BDK Sport the distributor for them.

regards
Tim

TPAD · 7th December 2007, 19:35

inside the scrubber

Hoosier_Dwain · 7th December 2007, 21:33

Are the faulty scrubbers from a particular batch or early manufacturing process? ::Nudges Dave::

I have recently purchased an Azimuth from Ron Benson (Deep Thought).

I plan to inspect the inside and do the water leakage test detailed earlier in this thread.

Great catch on this JAAP.

I find it amazing how much good and potentualy life saving information is available in this forum.

I am certain that combined with proper training and proper consistant personal habits. reading this forum will make me a safer rebreather diver.

Thanks guys,
Dwain

Rickoz · 8th December 2007, 03:45

I know a guy who went from chatting to god (the DIR one)
to owning a Azi diving it solo with no monitor or training then converting it to CCR then copping a CO2 hit on a OS holiday.
The way he's been talking of late, me thinks he might go back to the dark side.
Anyway i've sent him a PM, maybe he can add a bit.
He's very good with words prob make a good story out of this one,
he could sell ice Esk's.
Maybe even put up some pics of his unit.
Rickoz

***caveseeker7*** · 8th December 2007, 07:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

This is clearly a *design* flaw. The welds are *well done* and are not failing.

Sutton

*Thank you*, wasn't sure if the spot welding was by *design* or adapted during *manufacturing*.

Dorix · 8th December 2007, 16:29

Hi everybody.
I’m Alessandra

and I’m speaking in name of BDK Sport - Italy, the company who is charged to represent Azimuth: our company took over the distribution of Azimuth the first May 2005.

Speaking about the filter’s problem, Nanni Neuhlod, our technical manager, answered to Jaap some days ago and today to TPAD
Here is what Nanni wrote:
“The assembly technique of the filter, includes first the fixing of the inner separator (the disk with water trap) by six spot welds, but later this separator is fixed definitively by a continuous welding for 360°.
Moreover, one of the compulsory tests of production verifies the perfect airtight of the inner chamber both in pressure and in vacuum (with the scrubber filter’s inner hub hermetically sealed).
For all these reasons it is very strange that you have found a defective filter (with an uncompleted assembly).”

As you can understand from the Nanni’s explanation probably, for some unknown reasons, some filters without continuous welding are entered into the production.
As we said before we started our commercial collaboration with O.M.G on May 2005, so even if this problem does not concern our production, we want to solve this problem in order to give you all our support.

So if somebody else will find a filter not completely welded please send an email informing me about:

- the serial number of your rebreather (Serial number is inside the shutter)
- where and when you have bought it
- the inner diameter of the filter’s threaded join
- if possible, send us a picture of the unit
We need these details to identify exactly the batch of production.

Here is my email: alessandra@rebreather-azimuth.com

When we receive all those details from you, we’ll inform immediately O.M.G. and you will receive directly from them their reactions in order to solve the problem.

From the moment that we become distributor of Azimuth, we made a book-registry in order to connect each product to each final customer (by the serial number) by this way anytime we can trace the customers.
Unfortunately this did not exist before 2006: for this reason we need your help.

For your information Azimuth has become, this year, Azimuth Pro. The new denomination is due to the fact that the old Azimuth has undergone a few improvements and in spring has been certified with the new European certification EN14143:2003.

If you’ll need further info I’m at your full disposal and the same if you have complaints. (I hope not too much!

)

Thank you
Alessandra

7th December 2007, 14:14	#11 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,672	Re: Dangerous Azimuth scrubber Quote: (Originally Posted by caver99) Hi Dave, I just contacted them, lets see what the answer will be . In the past the were always friendly and helpfull (to me...no idea in the US, maybe different distributor over there) As far as I have more I will post it of course. Greetings Martin In the US there is effectively no distributor, as the time for the SCC rebreather has come and gone. There are 'vestiges' of distributorship, but I cannot believe that a new one has been sold in (years?) here. I was involved with the original representation of the rig here, and in its day it was a very interesting system... full of potential to evolve to a great CCR. Sadly that never happened save for 'amateur' conversions (some off which are excellent.... I still think it's a GREAT platform). Bottom line though is that there's no real support here for the rig. The scrubber thing needs to be addressed at the manufacturers level. Does anyone know the CE process for recall of life support equipment that is CE approved and then proves to have a design flaw that requires remediation? Simple solution is to use a Micropore scrubber. And really... the rig has not been troublesome in the field when used to it's design level. As a SCC rig the small 'potential' bypass is really probably not an issue. When converted to a CCR and used deeper.... well, that's not what it was designed to do, is it? Just dunno... I'll test the three cans I have here as soon as I get a second. Be interesting to take a broader sample. Dave __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com
(Offline)

7th December 2007, 16:57	#12 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,451	Couple of people now referred to the problem as a design flaw. Isn't it more of a manufacturing flaw, spot welding instead of a continuous weld? __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
(Offline)

7th December 2007, 17:39	#13 (permalink)
PaulTG2 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 425	Re: Dangerous Azimuth scrubber Hello, If the drawings sent to manufacturing showed spot welds it was a design problem, if they showed continuous welds and the production tream spot welded then it was a manufacturing problem. Either way the main company has an issue. --p Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Couple of people now referred to the problem as a design flaw. Isn't it more of a manufacturing flaw, spot welding instead of a continuous weld?
(Offline)

7th December 2007, 17:41	#14 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,672	Re: Dangerous Azimuth scrubber Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Couple of people now referred to the problem as a design flaw. Isn't it more of a manufacturing flaw, spot welding instead of a continuous weld? You DESIGN IN a spot weld where a continuous weld is appropriate and it's a design flaw. You DESIGN IN a spot weld where it would be appropriate and it's then badly welded then it's a manufacturing flaw. This is clearly a design flaw. The welds are well done and are not failing. Sutton __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com
(Offline)

7th December 2007, 17:54	#15 (permalink)
TPAD New Member Current Rebreather/s: Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Azimuth Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: wales Posts: 5	Re: Dangerous Azimuth scrubber Hi I was amazed when i opened mine up , you would think that a life support system would be tested before resale. i took photos of the tacks before i welded them back up. if i can figure out how to put them on this site , i'll post them up. also i think i'll send them to OMG / BDK Sport the distributor for them. regards Tim
(Offline)

7th December 2007, 21:33	#17 (permalink)
Hoosier_Dwain New Member Current Rebreather/s: Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Azimuth Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 5	Re: Dangerous Azimuth scrubber Are the faulty scrubbers from a particular batch or early manufacturing process? ::Nudges Dave:: I have recently purchased an Azimuth from Ron Benson (Deep Thought). I plan to inspect the inside and do the water leakage test detailed earlier in this thread. Great catch on this JAAP. I find it amazing how much good and potentualy life saving information is available in this forum. I am certain that combined with proper training and proper consistant personal habits. reading this forum will make me a safer rebreather diver. Thanks guys, Dwain
(Offline)

8th December 2007, 03:45	#18 (permalink)
Rickoz KISS Rebreather Pilot 109 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 150	Re: Dangerous Azimuth scrubber I know a guy who went from chatting to god (the DIR one) to owning a Azi diving it solo with no monitor or training then converting it to CCR then copping a CO2 hit on a OS holiday. The way he's been talking of late, me thinks he might go back to the dark side. Anyway i've sent him a PM, maybe he can add a bit. He's very good with words prob make a good story out of this one, he could sell ice Esk's. Maybe even put up some pics of his unit. Rickoz __________________ Rickoz http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gener...sland-r-u.html
(Offline)

8th December 2007, 07:12	#19 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,451	Re: Dangerous Azimuth scrubber Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) This is clearly a design flaw. The welds are well done and are not failing. Sutton Thank you, wasn't sure if the spot welding was by design or adapted during manufacturing. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
(Offline)

8th December 2007, 16:29	#20 (permalink)
Dorix New Member Current Rebreather/s: Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Azimuth Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 2	Re: Dangerous Azimuth scrubber Hi everybody. I’m Alessandra and I’m speaking in name of BDK Sport - Italy, the company who is charged to represent Azimuth: our company took over the distribution of Azimuth the first May 2005. Speaking about the filter’s problem, Nanni Neuhlod, our technical manager, answered to Jaap some days ago and today to TPAD Here is what Nanni wrote: “The assembly technique of the filter, includes first the fixing of the inner separator (the disk with water trap) by six spot welds, but later this separator is fixed definitively by a continuous welding for 360°. Moreover, one of the compulsory tests of production verifies the perfect airtight of the inner chamber both in pressure and in vacuum (with the scrubber filter’s inner hub hermetically sealed). For all these reasons it is very strange that you have found a defective filter (with an uncompleted assembly).” As you can understand from the Nanni’s explanation probably, for some unknown reasons, some filters without continuous welding are entered into the production. As we said before we started our commercial collaboration with O.M.G on May 2005, so even if this problem does not concern our production, we want to solve this problem in order to give you all our support. So if somebody else will find a filter not completely welded please send an email informing me about: - the serial number of your rebreather (Serial number is inside the shutter) - where and when you have bought it - the inner diameter of the filter’s threaded join - if possible, send us a picture of the unit We need these details to identify exactly the batch of production. Here is my email: alessandra@rebreather-azimuth.com When we receive all those details from you, we’ll inform immediately O.M.G. and you will receive directly from them their reactions in order to solve the problem. From the moment that we become distributor of Azimuth, we made a book-registry in order to connect each product to each final customer (by the serial number) by this way anytime we can trace the customers. Unfortunately this did not exist before 2006: for this reason we need your help. For your information Azimuth has become, this year, Azimuth Pro. The new denomination is due to the fact that the old Azimuth has undergone a few improvements and in spring has been certified with the new European certification EN14143:2003. If you’ll need further info I’m at your full disposal and the same if you have complaints. (I hope not too much! ) Thank you Alessandra
(Offline)

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