Need your feed back

Sutty · 21st December 2006, 11:41

Spherasorb is available as 1Kg plastic bags, packed into cardboard. Something similar for Sofnolime might suit.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Scott)

Mr Stephen Lyons,

I have a.... different idea in regards to packaging.

When I was a Hospital Corpsman in the Navy, our IV Solutions came (mostly)in 1 liter bags, if I recall correctly, 12 bags to a cardboard box.. For most storage and shipping, the cardboard protected the bags, even when handled by our 'friendly' Marines who didn't know they were handling their potentially life saving devices (ie, throwing and kicking them around)..

If instead of packaging in bulk plastic, you were to package in smaller pouches of 1 kg, users could take as many as they needed for their planned dive, pack them in various available spaces in their dive bags/kit where they would both be protected, and minimize shifting. Also, they could carry a very small plastic container for storing any small amount that is in excess from variations in rebreather scrubber capacities.

For bulk shipping, it should be somewhat easy to conform these individual packages to larger shipping box, a brick of say, 10 kilos.

I don't know how this would be considering potential reactive conditions, but if it would be possible to use was coated paper, or a paper base with a thin plastic substrate to protect from moisture, it would reduce the amount of packaging waste, *and* make the waste able to pack smaller for transport out of remote destinations. Sort of like some snack food containers.. or a childrens juice box perhaps?

Thank you for your time =)

Scott

Dutchy · 21st December 2006, 12:30

What renders chemicals unusable in general? Chemical reactions and physical deterioration. The latter one is all about handling and storing. Although Spheradorb can safely be frozen (I don't know about Sofnolime) a repeated cycle will cause erosion and cause dust. Driving around with it in your pickup during the week because you are too lazy to unload it when you only dive in weekends is another bad thing from a storage point of view.
The chemical aspect is harder to answer. Some chemical substances are instable in itself and will eiher react over time or e.g. rearrange molecules to a configuration unsuitable for your purpose. (The different salts may separate over time especially when conditions are favorable which potentially makes it "start" the sorb during pre-breathing)
The good thing is that NaOH and CaOH are very stable by themselves. The packaging will have to be CO2 and oher accids proof. High Density polyethylene (HDPE) will do perfect. I can see no reason why it shouldn't last 20 years other than the canister itself aging over time and becoming permeable.
Preventing that should be our top priority. Try to store cool and away from UV radiation that ages the canister (no exposure to sun light) and the sorb should last "forever".

I'd love to know what I've overlooked here

BTW My sorb expires in 5 years. I'm interested in what people in different countries find on their canisters. I really wonder whether it is a "technical" limitation or just another way to limit liability. Especially different expiry times for the same product sold in different countries would indicate that way.

Molecular Products Ltd · 21st March 2007, 09:01

The moistire content in the granule is extremely important to its use.

I have enclosed a small presentation on 'how sofnolime works' it will be the same for other brands.

If the water evaporates out of the granule and then escapes from the container which over a prelonged amount of time is not impossible then that will inhibit performance and this may not become apprant right away but could happen quite quickly. We have to build in a safety marker sure. but note the word safety. Not everything is a marketing scam!!

Quote: (Originally Posted by drbeddow)

Thanks to both Steven and Decoweenie for the responses. The reason for the question when the answer seems like such a no brainer is, I am a firefighter/paramedic by trade and have to deal with expired drugs all the time. They are pulled from service at or before the expiraton dates and usually exchanged at the local hospital for new. I am told however that there are places that send expired drugs to Mexico where they are happily used with no issues at all. Obviously the manufacturers have padded the expiration dates considerably to stay well clear of any issues. With all due respect Steven I know that you also find yourself in this situation as a rep for Molecular. So if I can ask a more carefully worded question. What happens to Sofnolime in a sealed container, as it ages, that renders it no longer usable?

Molecular Products Ltd · 21st March 2007, 09:36

Scott very timely. We are already on it.

I believe APD will be launching an inspiration and evolution soft packaging refill in the next couple of months.

If any one wants to send me a message and tell me what size there manufacturers scrubber unit is or what the most common sizr of unit is
I am all ears.

Regards

Stephen

Quote: (Originally Posted by Scott)

Mr Stephen Lyons,

I have a.... different idea in regards to packaging.

When I was a Hospital Corpsman in the Navy, our IV Solutions came (mostly)in 1 liter bags, if I recall correctly, 12 bags to a cardboard box.. For most storage and shipping, the cardboard protected the bags, even when handled by our 'friendly' Marines who didn't know they were handling their potentially life saving devices (ie, throwing and kicking them around)..

If instead of packaging in bulk plastic, you were to package in smaller pouches of 1 kg, users could take as many as they needed for their planned dive, pack them in various available spaces in their dive bags/kit where they would both be protected, and minimize shifting. Also, they could carry a very small plastic container for storing any small amount that is in excess from variations in rebreather scrubber capacities.

For bulk shipping, it should be somewhat easy to conform these individual packages to larger shipping box, a brick of say, 10 kilos.

I don't know how this would be considering potential reactive conditions, but if it would be possible to use was coated paper, or a paper base with a thin plastic substrate to protect from moisture, it would reduce the amount of packaging waste, *and* make the waste able to pack smaller for transport out of remote destinations. Sort of like some snack food containers.. or a childrens juice box perhaps?

Thank you for your time =)

Scott

tamorgen · 21st March 2007, 10:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT)

Stephen
Can you really produce a soft container of sof that could cope with banging into hard dive equipment in a dry kit bag?

Charliet

Charlie,
I would think this would be pretty easy. I would suggest they use the matterial that FedEx uses for their soft letter mailers. It's a plastic that is almost impossible to tear without actually using sissors or a knife. It's not Kevlar or anything, but it's damn close.

pete611 · 21st March 2007, 21:16

Welcome to Rebreather World.

Warm Water For Me......><))))°>

womble · 21st March 2007, 21:43

Hi Stephen,

Thanks for your replies to date. I have been reading them with interest.

I have a question of my own: I store my unused, unopened kegs of sofnolime in the garden shed. On the information sheet, the advice for storage is to store in a dry place in temperature range 0-30 C. What with the cold wether we have been having, is this harmful to the lime??

Cheers,

Pete

21st December 2006, 11:41	#81 (permalink)
Sutty Classic Kiss diver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Glossop, Derbyshire, UK Posts: 775	Re: Need your feed back Spherasorb is available as 1Kg plastic bags, packed into cardboard. Something similar for Sofnolime might suit. Quote: (Originally Posted by Scott) Mr Stephen Lyons, I have a.... different idea in regards to packaging. When I was a Hospital Corpsman in the Navy, our IV Solutions came (mostly)in 1 liter bags, if I recall correctly, 12 bags to a cardboard box.. For most storage and shipping, the cardboard protected the bags, even when handled by our 'friendly' Marines who didn't know they were handling their potentially life saving devices (ie, throwing and kicking them around).. If instead of packaging in bulk plastic, you were to package in smaller pouches of 1 kg, users could take as many as they needed for their planned dive, pack them in various available spaces in their dive bags/kit where they would both be protected, and minimize shifting. Also, they could carry a very small plastic container for storing any small amount that is in excess from variations in rebreather scrubber capacities. For bulk shipping, it should be somewhat easy to conform these individual packages to larger shipping box, a brick of say, 10 kilos. I don't know how this would be considering potential reactive conditions, but if it would be possible to use was coated paper, or a paper base with a thin plastic substrate to protect from moisture, it would reduce the amount of packaging waste, and make the waste able to pack smaller for transport out of remote destinations. Sort of like some snack food containers.. or a childrens juice box perhaps? Thank you for your time =) Scott __________________ Never forget that life is a finite resource. Last edited by Sutty : 21st December 2006 at 11:43.
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21st December 2006, 12:30	#82 (permalink)
Dutchy SK#007 Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 699	Re: Need your feed back What renders chemicals unusable in general? Chemical reactions and physical deterioration. The latter one is all about handling and storing. Although Spheradorb can safely be frozen (I don't know about Sofnolime) a repeated cycle will cause erosion and cause dust. Driving around with it in your pickup during the week because you are too lazy to unload it when you only dive in weekends is another bad thing from a storage point of view. The chemical aspect is harder to answer. Some chemical substances are instable in itself and will eiher react over time or e.g. rearrange molecules to a configuration unsuitable for your purpose. (The different salts may separate over time especially when conditions are favorable which potentially makes it "start" the sorb during pre-breathing) The good thing is that NaOH and CaOH are very stable by themselves. The packaging will have to be CO2 and oher accids proof. High Density polyethylene (HDPE) will do perfect. I can see no reason why it shouldn't last 20 years other than the canister itself aging over time and becoming permeable. Preventing that should be our top priority. Try to store cool and away from UV radiation that ages the canister (no exposure to sun light) and the sorb should last "forever". I'd love to know what I've overlooked here BTW My sorb expires in 5 years. I'm interested in what people in different countries find on their canisters. I really wonder whether it is a "technical" limitation or just another way to limit liability. Especially different expiry times for the same product sold in different countries would indicate that way. __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. = SK #007
(Offline)

21st March 2007, 09:01	#83 (permalink)
Molecular Products Ltd New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: UK Posts: 53	Re: Need your feed back The moistire content in the granule is extremely important to its use. I have enclosed a small presentation on 'how sofnolime works' it will be the same for other brands. If the water evaporates out of the granule and then escapes from the container which over a prelonged amount of time is not impossible then that will inhibit performance and this may not become apprant right away but could happen quite quickly. We have to build in a safety marker sure. but note the word safety. Not everything is a marketing scam!! Quote: (Originally Posted by drbeddow) Thanks to both Steven and Decoweenie for the responses. The reason for the question when the answer seems like such a no brainer is, I am a firefighter/paramedic by trade and have to deal with expired drugs all the time. They are pulled from service at or before the expiraton dates and usually exchanged at the local hospital for new. I am told however that there are places that send expired drugs to Mexico where they are happily used with no issues at all. Obviously the manufacturers have padded the expiration dates considerably to stay well clear of any issues. With all due respect Steven I know that you also find yourself in this situation as a rep for Molecular. So if I can ask a more carefully worded question. What happens to Sofnolime in a sealed container, as it ages, that renders it no longer usable? Last edited by Molecular Products Ltd : 21st March 2007 at 09:23.
(Offline)

21st March 2007, 09:36	#84 (permalink)
Molecular Products Ltd New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: UK Posts: 53	Re: Need your feed back Scott very timely. We are already on it. I believe APD will be launching an inspiration and evolution soft packaging refill in the next couple of months. If any one wants to send me a message and tell me what size there manufacturers scrubber unit is or what the most common sizr of unit is I am all ears. Regards Stephen Quote: (Originally Posted by Scott) Mr Stephen Lyons, I have a.... different idea in regards to packaging. When I was a Hospital Corpsman in the Navy, our IV Solutions came (mostly)in 1 liter bags, if I recall correctly, 12 bags to a cardboard box.. For most storage and shipping, the cardboard protected the bags, even when handled by our 'friendly' Marines who didn't know they were handling their potentially life saving devices (ie, throwing and kicking them around).. If instead of packaging in bulk plastic, you were to package in smaller pouches of 1 kg, users could take as many as they needed for their planned dive, pack them in various available spaces in their dive bags/kit where they would both be protected, and minimize shifting. Also, they could carry a very small plastic container for storing any small amount that is in excess from variations in rebreather scrubber capacities. For bulk shipping, it should be somewhat easy to conform these individual packages to larger shipping box, a brick of say, 10 kilos. I don't know how this would be considering potential reactive conditions, but if it would be possible to use was coated paper, or a paper base with a thin plastic substrate to protect from moisture, it would reduce the amount of packaging waste, and make the waste able to pack smaller for transport out of remote destinations. Sort of like some snack food containers.. or a childrens juice box perhaps? Thank you for your time =) Scott
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21st March 2007, 10:41	#85 (permalink)
tamorgen Gadget guru extrordinaire Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Columbia, MD Posts: 183	Re: Need your feed back Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT) Stephen Can you really produce a soft container of sof that could cope with banging into hard dive equipment in a dry kit bag? Charliet Charlie, I would think this would be pretty easy. I would suggest they use the matterial that FedEx uses for their soft letter mailers. It's a plastic that is almost impossible to tear without actually using sissors or a knife. It's not Kevlar or anything, but it's damn close.
(Offline)

21st March 2007, 21:16	#86 (permalink)
pete611 RBD one dive at a time... Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Puerto Rico Posts: 223	Re: Need your feed back Welcome to Rebreather World. Warm Water For Me......><))))°>
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21st March 2007, 21:43	#87 (permalink)
womble Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: UK Posts: 188	Re: Need your feed back Hi Stephen, Thanks for your replies to date. I have been reading them with interest. I have a question of my own: I store my unused, unopened kegs of sofnolime in the garden shed. On the information sheet, the advice for storage is to store in a dry place in temperature range 0-30 C. What with the cold wether we have been having, is this harmful to the lime?? Cheers, Pete
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