Need your feed back

***Beanie*** · 12th October 2006, 14:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by Molecular Products Ltd)

I am listening to you Charlie and I hear you but we like to reduce our offering on bulky packaging sizes not increase them.
Does the soft packaging idea in exactly the right weight not sound like a hit then.

It does but inspiration 2.5kg, evolution 2kg, KISS.... it would be a pain if you have a bag that's say 2.5 and you need 2 or 3 cause you'll end up with half empty bags everywhere

I can't see you making half a dozen different sized bags

IF you did it would be easy to travel with - until you split one

Genesis · 12th October 2006, 14:31

Thirds on the cost issue over here in the US. You're at least 50% more expensive than your competitors due to the supply/distributorship situation, and even with a superior product, that hurts.

If someone's willing to buy a pallet of a competitor's product (e.g. a bunch of guys going in on it) you can be 250% more expensive (!) Obviously you're not even in the game with that price differential.....

Sutty · 12th October 2006, 15:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by Molecular Products Ltd)

Diving grade is manufactured and tested to a much higher standard, we would not advise anybody to dive on medical grade, it could be a life limiting decision. We and other manufacturers supply diving grade with indicators if you really want them. Indicators became an issue when one manufacturer (not MPL) changed the type of dye that the used which reacted more and gave the scrubber media a bad chemical taste. I believe thay have now stopped this. Does anyone know if indicators still cause changes in taste and if si with what products?

No discernable taste with pink-to-whte spherasorb, but the colour does regenerate after a while.

Neil

divetheworld · 12th October 2006, 17:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by Molecular Products Ltd)

I am listening to you Charlie and I hear you but we like to reduce our offering on bulky packaging sizes not increase them.
Does the soft packaging idea in exactly the right weight not sound like a hit then.

Bags, packed into carboard boxes?
Cheaper than plastic containers to manufacture once the casepacker investment is returned. Less problems with bridging in the checkweigh filler with the larger funnel size. Sturdy and less prone to puncture.
User can then discard the box at his leisure.

Personally, I will keep buying keg after keg and a load of zip up freezer bags for ready made fills. 2.5kgs like Ian said.

Brent

viscya · 12th October 2006, 20:28

Stephen,

Heather is right on the price, Sofnolime goes for about $165 for a 44lb of the 8-12. ( about $3.75/lb )

Grace Sodasorb runs $85 for 37 lb for 6-12. ( about $2.29/lb )

As Genesis pointed out, groups of us can get together and buy a pallet of Sodasorb at the beginning of the season and save even more. I've been through 3 kegs this season, and I only started in June. This can be several hundred dollars in savings per year.

With Sofnolime, even dive shops can not buy directly from the US importer, and our shop buys pallets at at time. When I buy from the local shop, the product has passed through three hands just on this side of the pond.

Don't get me wrong, my dive buddies and I all agree that yours is the better product. Some of us will pay for the quality, others can't justify it.

As far as packaging goes, the Kegs are fine for me. We buy tupperware containers or ziploc bag to store/transport a single scrubbers worth.

Dave

P.S. Thanks for joining the board! I hope we don't drive you away with all our questions.

**Gill Envy** · 12th October 2006, 22:02

Quote:

Well, the obvious question you will get is "how can we have a superior product at less cost?"

I think everyone knows that MP is the superior product, but how can we as the user get it at a better cost? In the US, there seem to be a bottle neck with O.C. Lugo. They only sell to sea pearls. The rest of us must deal with them. If I can order a pallet of product, why can't I get it from O.C. directly? Other manufacturers/distributors will sell directly in these quantities. Why won't O.C.? This step through two middle men makes the price of your product out of line.

FWIW

Dave

Quote: (Originally Posted by Molecular Products Ltd)

Hi Dave, I was not aware this was the case. What is the current market price for Sofnolime in the US that you would pay and how does this compare to other products. I would think the way to unblock this bottle neck would be to appoint new distributors in the states. We could not sensibly deal in one pallet lots but could appoint more distributors with the express instruction that they supply direct and not to just to sub distributors as OC Lugo appear to be doing. Every day is a school day. Thank you for the compliment on Sofnolime.

Stephan, thanks for joining the fray and being so patient and thorough. I would have to say ditto to what dave said. here in seattle it seems that a very unfortunate trend had begun with safnolime. While i have used safnolime a bit, i have made the switch to sodasorb and learned to put up with a little dust however because the price of safnolime is jumping up and the availability is spotty. Here are some numbers for what i have found available to me. I'm not trying to be a skin flint or insulting to you, but here is what the North West diver has available to him.

The local stores here that carry safnolime have recently raised there prices. A 22lb twin pack is $110 US...that's $210 a keg= $4.75 lb. and to boot, the original kegs are no longer available through most of the suppliers, claiming that they are just no longer available. (compared to bulk internet prices of $145/keg or $3.29/lb incl shipping) These same stores no longer offer sodasorb...so some of the rebreather divers around here are resorting to going in on large palate orders of sodasorb over the internet: a couple of sources offer aprox $91 per 37 lb keg including shipping= $2.45 lb. for palate orders.

I do believe that safnolime is a superior product (better product uniformity, little to no dust, seemingly a bit longer in duration-at least from what i can tell with the temp stick) and don't really have much i would change about it...except for maybe leaving out the dye altogether since it realy can not be trusted unless you are using it with an anesthesia machine, can see it and have a CO2 monitor to safely economize.

so i would have to say that there must be some kind of cornering of the market here that has driven the cost of the product up so much that many folks are switching brands...reducing the number of middlemen would undoubtedly help things. I would be willing to pay 20-30% more for safnolime but not 100% more than sodasorb.

that's my two granules worth,

Genesis · 12th October 2006, 22:23

Yeah, I think the real issue is opening more distribution channels. Having only one US distributor is hurting you badly; I'd definitely like to be able to source this stuff at a reasonable price.....

I understand transport costs money and so its likely going to be somewhat more expensive than the alternatives, but a superior product can command a superior price and be ok - just as long as its not outrageously more expensive!

(FWIW I'm just starting to need this stuff.... but anticipate needing a LOT of it in the coming year and onward....

)

shil · 13th October 2006, 13:18

(Originally Posted by Molecular Products Ltd)

"Diving grade is manufactured and tested to a much higher standard, we would not advise anybody to dive on medical grade, it could be a life limiting decision."

Can you elaborate on this please, ? The difference in these two products. Tech details welcome.

Shil

**Robert Landreth** · 13th October 2006, 15:51

Stephen Lyons
Hi Stephan. Thanks for your input. What most affects activation of Sofnolime, Depth, Cold, Co2, What would be the parameters of changing off an active Rebreather to a bailout RB with an inactive scrubber at depth. Would keeping the scrubber warm even though inactive help? At what minimum temp can one just start breathing of a scrubber? Are the smaller grain sizes better for that scenario? (8/12) Thanks.
Robert Landreth

nmanfield · 13th October 2006, 20:17

I live in the Ukraine and all absorbents are imported at huge cost because they are classified as medical equipment which attracts a unbelievably high tax (15 dollars a kilo anyone?!). Any chance it could be rebranded as diving equipment. Also, do you have any distributors in Ukraine (or hungary or Czech).

Also a list of worldwide distributors and instructions on how to order would be helpful.
Welcome and thanks

12th October 2006, 14:27	#41 (permalink)
*Beanie* Politeness officer Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,163	Re: Need your feed back Quote: (Originally Posted by Molecular Products Ltd) I am listening to you Charlie and I hear you but we like to reduce our offering on bulky packaging sizes not increase them. Does the soft packaging idea in exactly the right weight not sound like a hit then. It does but inspiration 2.5kg, evolution 2kg, KISS.... it would be a pain if you have a bag that's say 2.5 and you need 2 or 3 cause you'll end up with half empty bags everywhere I can't see you making half a dozen different sized bags IF you did it would be easy to travel with - until you split one __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk www.divelife.co.uk
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12th October 2006, 14:31	#42 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: Need your feed back Thirds on the cost issue over here in the US. You're at least 50% more expensive than your competitors due to the supply/distributorship situation, and even with a superior product, that hurts. If someone's willing to buy a pallet of a competitor's product (e.g. a bunch of guys going in on it) you can be 250% more expensive (!) Obviously you're not even in the game with that price differential..... __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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12th October 2006, 15:30	#43 (permalink)
Sutty Classic Kiss diver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Glossop, Derbyshire, UK Posts: 775	Re: Need your feed back Quote: (Originally Posted by Molecular Products Ltd) Diving grade is manufactured and tested to a much higher standard, we would not advise anybody to dive on medical grade, it could be a life limiting decision. We and other manufacturers supply diving grade with indicators if you really want them. Indicators became an issue when one manufacturer (not MPL) changed the type of dye that the used which reacted more and gave the scrubber media a bad chemical taste. I believe thay have now stopped this. Does anyone know if indicators still cause changes in taste and if si with what products? No discernable taste with pink-to-whte spherasorb, but the colour does regenerate after a while. Neil __________________ Never forget that life is a finite resource.
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12th October 2006, 17:48	#44 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,535	Re: Need your feed back Quote: (Originally Posted by Molecular Products Ltd) I am listening to you Charlie and I hear you but we like to reduce our offering on bulky packaging sizes not increase them. Does the soft packaging idea in exactly the right weight not sound like a hit then. Bags, packed into carboard boxes? Cheaper than plastic containers to manufacture once the casepacker investment is returned. Less problems with bridging in the checkweigh filler with the larger funnel size. Sturdy and less prone to puncture. User can then discard the box at his leisure. Personally, I will keep buying keg after keg and a load of zip up freezer bags for ready made fills. 2.5kgs like Ian said. Brent __________________ Self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
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12th October 2006, 20:28	#45 (permalink)
viscya Wrecking Crew Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Marlton New Jersey Posts: 140	Re: Need your feed back Stephen, Heather is right on the price, Sofnolime goes for about $165 for a 44lb of the 8-12. ( about $3.75/lb ) Grace Sodasorb runs $85 for 37 lb for 6-12. ( about $2.29/lb ) As Genesis pointed out, groups of us can get together and buy a pallet of Sodasorb at the beginning of the season and save even more. I've been through 3 kegs this season, and I only started in June. This can be several hundred dollars in savings per year. With Sofnolime, even dive shops can not buy directly from the US importer, and our shop buys pallets at at time. When I buy from the local shop, the product has passed through three hands just on this side of the pond. Don't get me wrong, my dive buddies and I all agree that yours is the better product. Some of us will pay for the quality, others can't justify it. As far as packaging goes, the Kegs are fine for me. We buy tupperware containers or ziploc bag to store/transport a single scrubbers worth. Dave P.S. Thanks for joining the board! I hope we don't drive you away with all our questions. __________________ "There is nothing majestic or dignified about being left to silently rot and collapse under heaps of old fishing net forgotten and unappreciated in dark and unvisited waters." DrMike
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12th October 2006, 22:02	#46 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,250	Re: Need your feed back Quote: Well, the obvious question you will get is "how can we have a superior product at less cost?" I think everyone knows that MP is the superior product, but how can we as the user get it at a better cost? In the US, there seem to be a bottle neck with O.C. Lugo. They only sell to sea pearls. The rest of us must deal with them. If I can order a pallet of product, why can't I get it from O.C. directly? Other manufacturers/distributors will sell directly in these quantities. Why won't O.C.? This step through two middle men makes the price of your product out of line. FWIW Dave Quote: (Originally Posted by Molecular Products Ltd) Hi Dave, I was not aware this was the case. What is the current market price for Sofnolime in the US that you would pay and how does this compare to other products. I would think the way to unblock this bottle neck would be to appoint new distributors in the states. We could not sensibly deal in one pallet lots but could appoint more distributors with the express instruction that they supply direct and not to just to sub distributors as OC Lugo appear to be doing. Every day is a school day. Thank you for the compliment on Sofnolime. Stephan, thanks for joining the fray and being so patient and thorough. I would have to say ditto to what dave said. here in seattle it seems that a very unfortunate trend had begun with safnolime. While i have used safnolime a bit, i have made the switch to sodasorb and learned to put up with a little dust however because the price of safnolime is jumping up and the availability is spotty. Here are some numbers for what i have found available to me. I'm not trying to be a skin flint or insulting to you, but here is what the North West diver has available to him. The local stores here that carry safnolime have recently raised there prices. A 22lb twin pack is $110 US...that's $210 a keg= $4.75 lb. and to boot, the original kegs are no longer available through most of the suppliers, claiming that they are just no longer available. (compared to bulk internet prices of $145/keg or $3.29/lb incl shipping) These same stores no longer offer sodasorb...so some of the rebreather divers around here are resorting to going in on large palate orders of sodasorb over the internet: a couple of sources offer aprox $91 per 37 lb keg including shipping= $2.45 lb. for palate orders. I do believe that safnolime is a superior product (better product uniformity, little to no dust, seemingly a bit longer in duration-at least from what i can tell with the temp stick) and don't really have much i would change about it...except for maybe leaving out the dye altogether since it realy can not be trusted unless you are using it with an anesthesia machine, can see it and have a CO2 monitor to safely economize. so i would have to say that there must be some kind of cornering of the market here that has driven the cost of the product up so much that many folks are switching brands...reducing the number of middlemen would undoubtedly help things. I would be willing to pay 20-30% more for safnolime but not 100% more than sodasorb. that's my two granules worth, __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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12th October 2006, 22:23	#47 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: Need your feed back Yeah, I think the real issue is opening more distribution channels. Having only one US distributor is hurting you badly; I'd definitely like to be able to source this stuff at a reasonable price..... I understand transport costs money and so its likely going to be somewhat more expensive than the alternatives, but a superior product can command a superior price and be ok - just as long as its not outrageously more expensive! (FWIW I'm just starting to need this stuff.... but anticipate needing a LOT of it in the coming year and onward.... ) __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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13th October 2006, 13:18	#48 (permalink)
shil New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: India Posts: 28	Re: Need your feed back (Originally Posted by Molecular Products Ltd) "Diving grade is manufactured and tested to a much higher standard, we would not advise anybody to dive on medical grade, it could be a life limiting decision." Can you elaborate on this please, ? The difference in these two products. Tech details welcome. Shil
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13th October 2006, 15:51	#49 (permalink)
Robert Landreth Supporting Member Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: CA USA/ Spain Posts: 38	Re: Need your feed back Stephen Lyons Hi Stephan. Thanks for your input. What most affects activation of Sofnolime, Depth, Cold, Co2, What would be the parameters of changing off an active Rebreather to a bailout RB with an inactive scrubber at depth. Would keeping the scrubber warm even though inactive help? At what minimum temp can one just start breathing of a scrubber? Are the smaller grain sizes better for that scenario? (8/12) Thanks. Robert Landreth __________________ If it is broke don't fixit, Bailout!
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13th October 2006, 20:17	#50 (permalink)
nmanfield Megalegalegalegadingdong! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Odessa, Ukraine Posts: 329	Re: Need your feed back I live in the Ukraine and all absorbents are imported at huge cost because they are classified as medical equipment which attracts a unbelievably high tax (15 dollars a kilo anyone?!). Any chance it could be rebranded as diving equipment. Also, do you have any distributors in Ukraine (or hungary or Czech). Also a list of worldwide distributors and instructions on how to order would be helpful. Welcome and thanks __________________ Tub 'O Lard
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