new way to track granular sorb use?

**Gill Envy** · 10th August 2007, 15:52

I was reading up on the color die used in sodasorb after reading Mark's discoveries on the measuring of the EAC degree of exhaustion and stumbled upon this: SODASORBÂ® LF CO2 Absorbent
Not sure how new this really is, but permanent color change sounds like it might actually make the color reactive sodasorb truly useful to
Rebreather diver and not just the Anesthetician. I'm wondering if anyone has done similar tests on this stuff as Mark and others are doing with the EAC's. If not, what are we waiting for?

Molecular Products Ltd · 13th September 2007, 11:16

Hi Gill and indeed the rest of the Rebreather community,

Please do not even entertain the use of any LoFlo absorbents, They are designed to interact with Co2 at a much slower rate than normal Co2 absorbents and using them in diving equipment is fatal. You will begin your dive normaly and then get in some real trouble pretty quick.

As a ref look at the APD website where a diver recently died using Amsorb Loflo absorbent, we have been involved in a couple of other diver death inquests were this has been the case.

Regards

Stephen

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

I was reading up on the color die used in sodasorb after reading Mark's discoveries on the measuring of the EAC degree of exhaustion and stumbled upon this: SODASORBÂ® LF CO2 Absorbent
Not sure how new this really is, but permanent color change sounds like it might actually make the color reactive sodasorb truly useful to
Rebreather diver and not just the Anesthetician. I'm wondering if anyone has done similar tests on this stuff as Mark and others are doing with the EAC's. If not, what are we waiting for?

JonnyB · 13th September 2007, 11:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by Molecular Products Ltd)

Hi Gill and indeed the rest of the Rebreather community,

Please do not even entertain the use of any LoFlo absorbents, They are designed to interact with Co2 at a much slower rate than normal Co2 absorbents and using them in diving equipment is fatal. You will begin your dive normaly and then get in some real trouble pretty quick.

As a ref look at the APD website where a diver recently died using Amsorb Loflo absorbent, we have been involved in a couple of other diver death inquests were this has been the case.

Regards

Stephen

Thanks Stephen, now this is just the kind of activity i want to see from a manufacturer. Others should learn and follow. Have some green!

/Jonny

jaap · 13th September 2007, 15:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

I was reading up on the color die used in sodasorb after reading Mark's discoveries on the measuring of the EAC degree of exhaustion and stumbled upon this: SODASORBÂ® LF CO2 Absorbent
Not sure how new this really is, but permanent color change sounds like it might actually make the color reactive sodasorb truly useful to
Rebreather diver and not just the Anesthetician. I'm wondering if anyone has done similar tests on this stuff as Mark and others are doing with the EAC's. If not, what are we waiting for?

Hi

As I have understood it the permanent colour change is achieved by not using the strong bases (NaOH and/or KOH) that are needed to enhance the reactions rates for sorbs designed for higher flows.

A bit simplified but the colour change is basically from a pH indicator. After use the bases that are still present migrate in the used sorb evening out the pH making the color shift back.

I like to tinker and try crazy things and is usually sceptic about warnings that are not followed by a sound motivation. That said being a chemist I would never ever attempt to dive low flow sorbs.

**Gill Envy** · 13th September 2007, 18:07

Jaap, thanks for that explanation. I was not thinking LF sorb was applicable but I liked the idea of permanent color change, as it seems that the impermanent version is totally useless. You're explanation may just explain why it's not valuable in a higher flow sorb and thus not applicable to use with Rebreather's. thanks again.

Quote: (Originally Posted by jaap)

Hi

As I have understood it the permanent colour change is achieved by not using the strong bases (NaOH and/or KOH) that are needed to enhance the reactions rates for sorbs designed for higher flows.

A bit simplified but the colour change is basically from a pH indicator. After use the bases that are still present migrate in the used sorb evening out the pH making the color shift back.

I like to tinker and try crazy things and is usually sceptic about warnings that are not followed by a sound motivation. That said being a chemist I would never ever attempt to dive low flow sorbs.

Duncan Price · 13th September 2007, 19:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by jaap)

I like to tinker and try crazy things and is usually sceptic about warnings that are not followed by a sound motivation. That said being a chemist I would never ever attempt to dive low flow sorbs.

I have actually used lo flow* (or rather low caustic - recommended for use with anasthesia due to the potential reaction [formation of phosgene] with anasthetic gases) for one rebreather dive. The scrubbing capacity is seriously less than regular sorbents so that whilst it could be used in a standard scrubber, the performance would be compromised. No doubt a diving rated scrubber might be built and performance tested, I don't see the point.

* it was a gift. The dive was short.

jaap · 14th September 2007, 23:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by Duncan Price)

I have actually used lo flow* (or rather low caustic - recommended for use with anasthesia due to the potential reaction [formation of phosgene] with anasthetic gases) for one rebreather dive. The scrubbing capacity is seriously less than regular sorbents so that whilst it could be used in a standard scrubber, the performance would be compromised. No doubt a diving rated scrubber might be built and performance tested, I don't see the point.

* it was a gift. The dive was short.

Hi Duncan! Chem guru

Sure AFAIK the early rebreathers made in the end of the 19th century used plain Ca(OH)2

So did it take some prebreathing of yours to get it started? Did you try any heavy work ?

In a way we complement each other... I did some silly couch testing (being a coward) using only strong base (one way ticket for the KOH)... That was when I was feeling a little extra experimental testing some russian O3 and had retrieved some KO2 from storage to compare with. (Xxxxxxxxxx if you read this, we still need to get that properish testing done with your machinery).

That sort of shit is not recomended for UW use...

[formation of phosgene]

Euh? Sounds nasty! AFAIK formation of CO is observed sometimes in _anesthisia_ Rebreather with either dryish (higher sorb temp upon reaction, so sounds likely) or high caustic depending on who to belive (search pubmed: CO absorbent). But phosgene! Sure formation of CO could be a step towards COCl2

But anyway I don't think we need to get anyone thinking that that sort of shit could be formed in a regular UW-rebreather.

BTW Got a new sling Rebreather working with the cells in the scrubber.

10th August 2007, 15:52	#1 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,302	new way to track granular sorb use? I was reading up on the color die used in sodasorb after reading Mark's discoveries on the measuring of the EAC degree of exhaustion and stumbled upon this: SODASORBÂ® LF CO2 Absorbent Not sure how new this really is, but permanent color change sounds like it might actually make the color reactive sodasorb truly useful to Rebreather diver and not just the Anesthetician. I'm wondering if anyone has done similar tests on this stuff as Mark and others are doing with the EAC's. If not, what are we waiting for? __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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13th September 2007, 11:16	#2 (permalink)
Molecular Products Ltd New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: UK Posts: 53	Re: new way to track granular sorb use? Hi Gill and indeed the rest of the Rebreather community, Please do not even entertain the use of any LoFlo absorbents, They are designed to interact with Co2 at a much slower rate than normal Co2 absorbents and using them in diving equipment is fatal. You will begin your dive normaly and then get in some real trouble pretty quick. As a ref look at the APD website where a diver recently died using Amsorb Loflo absorbent, we have been involved in a couple of other diver death inquests were this has been the case. Regards Stephen Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) I was reading up on the color die used in sodasorb after reading Mark's discoveries on the measuring of the EAC degree of exhaustion and stumbled upon this: SODASORBÂ® LF CO2 Absorbent Not sure how new this really is, but permanent color change sounds like it might actually make the color reactive sodasorb truly useful to Rebreather diver and not just the Anesthetician. I'm wondering if anyone has done similar tests on this stuff as Mark and others are doing with the EAC's. If not, what are we waiting for?
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13th September 2007, 11:23	#3 (permalink)
JonnyB Johnny The Hatch Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Titan Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden (Stockholm)/Cyprus(Ayia Napa) Posts: 961	Re: new way to track granular sorb use? Quote: (Originally Posted by Molecular Products Ltd) Hi Gill and indeed the rest of the Rebreather community, Please do not even entertain the use of any LoFlo absorbents, They are designed to interact with Co2 at a much slower rate than normal Co2 absorbents and using them in diving equipment is fatal. You will begin your dive normaly and then get in some real trouble pretty quick. As a ref look at the APD website where a diver recently died using Amsorb Loflo absorbent, we have been involved in a couple of other diver death inquests were this has been the case. Regards Stephen Thanks Stephen, now this is just the kind of activity i want to see from a manufacturer. Others should learn and follow. Have some green! /Jonny __________________ A quote from Crazyduck - In remembering our own Rob Davies. "Outbound flight 777 heavy you are cleared for flight Due west into that warm red Texas sunset You have angels on your wings and divers memories on your six." Rest In Peace http://www.divetekcyprus.com http://www.diveccr.com
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13th September 2007, 15:16	#4 (permalink)
jaap Normal people worry me Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 445	Re: new way to track granular sorb use? Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) I was reading up on the color die used in sodasorb after reading Mark's discoveries on the measuring of the EAC degree of exhaustion and stumbled upon this: SODASORBÂ® LF CO2 Absorbent Not sure how new this really is, but permanent color change sounds like it might actually make the color reactive sodasorb truly useful to Rebreather diver and not just the Anesthetician. I'm wondering if anyone has done similar tests on this stuff as Mark and others are doing with the EAC's. If not, what are we waiting for? Hi As I have understood it the permanent colour change is achieved by not using the strong bases (NaOH and/or KOH) that are needed to enhance the reactions rates for sorbs designed for higher flows. A bit simplified but the colour change is basically from a pH indicator. After use the bases that are still present migrate in the used sorb evening out the pH making the color shift back. I like to tinker and try crazy things and is usually sceptic about warnings that are not followed by a sound motivation. That said being a chemist I would never ever attempt to dive low flow sorbs. __________________ My initials: JAAP Last edited by jaap : 13th September 2007 at 15:20.
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13th September 2007, 18:07	#5 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,302	Re: new way to track granular sorb use? Jaap, thanks for that explanation. I was not thinking LF sorb was applicable but I liked the idea of permanent color change, as it seems that the impermanent version is totally useless. You're explanation may just explain why it's not valuable in a higher flow sorb and thus not applicable to use with Rebreather's. thanks again. Quote: (Originally Posted by jaap) Hi As I have understood it the permanent colour change is achieved by not using the strong bases (NaOH and/or KOH) that are needed to enhance the reactions rates for sorbs designed for higher flows. A bit simplified but the colour change is basically from a pH indicator. After use the bases that are still present migrate in the used sorb evening out the pH making the color shift back. I like to tinker and try crazy things and is usually sceptic about warnings that are not followed by a sound motivation. That said being a chemist I would never ever attempt to dive low flow sorbs. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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13th September 2007, 19:25	#6 (permalink)
Duncan Price Sump Monster Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Wells, Somerset, UK Posts: 336	Re: new way to track granular sorb use? Quote: (Originally Posted by jaap) I like to tinker and try crazy things and is usually sceptic about warnings that are not followed by a sound motivation. That said being a chemist I would never ever attempt to dive low flow sorbs. I have actually used lo flow* (or rather low caustic - recommended for use with anasthesia due to the potential reaction [formation of phosgene] with anasthetic gases) for one rebreather dive. The scrubbing capacity is seriously less than regular sorbents so that whilst it could be used in a standard scrubber, the performance would be compromised. No doubt a diving rated scrubber might be built and performance tested, I don't see the point. * it was a gift. The dive was short.
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14th September 2007, 23:28	#7 (permalink)
jaap Normal people worry me Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 445	Re: new way to track granular sorb use? Quote: (Originally Posted by Duncan Price) I have actually used lo flow* (or rather low caustic - recommended for use with anasthesia due to the potential reaction [formation of phosgene] with anasthetic gases) for one rebreather dive. The scrubbing capacity is seriously less than regular sorbents so that whilst it could be used in a standard scrubber, the performance would be compromised. No doubt a diving rated scrubber might be built and performance tested, I don't see the point. * it was a gift. The dive was short. Hi Duncan! Chem guru Sure AFAIK the early rebreathers made in the end of the 19th century used plain Ca(OH)2 So did it take some prebreathing of yours to get it started? Did you try any heavy work ? In a way we complement each other... I did some silly couch testing (being a coward) using only strong base (one way ticket for the KOH)... That was when I was feeling a little extra experimental testing some russian O3 and had retrieved some KO2 from storage to compare with. (Xxxxxxxxxx if you read this, we still need to get that properish testing done with your machinery). That sort of shit is not recomended for UW use... [formation of phosgene] Euh? Sounds nasty! AFAIK formation of CO is observed sometimes in _anesthisia_ Rebreather with either dryish (higher sorb temp upon reaction, so sounds likely) or high caustic depending on who to belive (search pubmed: CO absorbent). But phosgene! Sure formation of CO could be a step towards COCl2 But anyway I don't think we need to get anyone thinking that that sort of shit could be formed in a regular UW-rebreather. BTW Got a new sling Rebreather working with the cells in the scrubber. __________________ My initials: JAAP Last edited by jaap : 15th September 2007 at 00:51. Reason: This spelling thing...
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