and now the truth... abouth WOB

**kybrt** · 15th February 2008, 05:46

what about the meg with a bov? an optima? an inpsiration? where does it end? paul tested, passed printed the resuts, and its still not enuff?

C'mon now isnt it time to give paul credit for crossing from homebuild to true professional rebreather status, right up there with jetsam, ap valves and the rest?

btw i think when paul says modified mini he is talking about the minirEvo with the new shearwater controller.

does that mean that rEvo could acheive CE now? at least for the parachute system?

paul great news, congratulations.

PCDiver · 15th February 2008, 06:28

For all of those that want to have a closer look at the rEvo. We made a video interview with Paul at Duikvaker last week. It will be available at Welcome to Submerge Productions in a week or two. Perhaps sooner. A direct link to the video section: Submerge Productions > Action! > Interviews

Peter

paulraymaekers · 15th February 2008, 07:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

Just one question, was that the result for the stock revo, or the modified one?

some clarification:

in normal diving conditions, breathing rates of 20-40 l/min, and tidal volumes of 1.5 - 2 liter, it is difficult to find big differences between rebreathers, they all breath +/- ok

this is the reason why all divers find there rig breathing well!

the real differences come at extreme breathing rates, big tidal volumes:

for example for the CE WOB test, the strongest is 75/min, with 25breaths/min at tidal volume 3liter
now the test just below is 62.5l/min, with 25breaths/min at tidal 2.5 liter

well, this 62.5l test gives a WOB 40% less then the 75/l ..

now the question is when do you use 75l/min??? never???

as pointed in my first mail, the 2.4 WOB is a modified, mini rEvo, adapted housing, adapted breathinghose, adapted mouthpiece etc

the standard mini we actually supply, with the standard breathinghose, gives +/- 3.65 j/l

another example of relevance or not of the 75l/min test:
the 90° angle in the breathing hose, that makes the hoses fall perfectly over your shoulders, and gives you a 'sleek' profile

what happens if you replace them by a straith connector??
at normal breathing rates, 20/30l/min, this changes the WOB with less then 0.1 J/liter, even 0.05....
at 75l/min, the 90° angle gives you extra WOB of 0.5 J/lit!!!...

so?? should you have the strait connectors, with the worse profile and dangle around you head, to have no improvement at normal breathing rates, or the 90° elbow, clean profile, better vis around your head, that only gives better WOB at extreme, but really extreem breathing rates??

designing a system always means to compromise!

regards
paul

***jradomski*** · 15th February 2008, 07:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

some clarification:

in normal diving conditions, breathing rates of 20-40 l/min, and tidal volumes of 1.5 - 2 liter, it is difficult to find big differences between rebreathers, they all breath +/- ok

this is the reason why all divers find there rig breathing well!

the real differences come at extreme breathing rates, big tidal volumes:

for example for the CE WOB test, the strongest is 75/min, with 25breaths/min at tidal volume 3liter
now the test just below is 62.5l/min, with 25breaths/min at tidal 2.5 liter

well, this 62.5l test gives a WOB 40% less then the 75/l ..

now the question is when do you use 75l/min??? never???

as pointed in my first mail, the 2.4 WOB is a modified, mini rEvo, adapted housing, adapted breathinghose, adapted mouthpiece etc

the standard mini we actually supply, with the standard breathinghose, gives +/- 3.65 j/l

another example of relevance or not of the 75l/min test:
the 90° angle in the breathing hose, that makes the hoses fall perfectly over your shoulders, and gives you a 'sleek' profile

what happens if you replace them by a straith connector??
at normal breathing rates, 20/30l/min, this changes the WOB with less then 0.1 J/liter, even 0.05....
at 75l/min, the 90° angle gives you extra WOB of 0.5 J/lit!!!...

so?? should you have the strait connectors, with the worse profile and dangle around you head, to have no improvement at normal breathing rates, or the 90° elbow, clean profile, better vis around your head, that only gives better WOB at extreme, but really extreem breathing rates??

designing a system always means to compromise!

regards
paul

Paul the answer is easy.. test it and sell it with the straight connector, and sell the rt angle connector as a plumbing fitting

dave t · 15th February 2008, 08:28

My personal opinion is the CE testing standards need changing or at least expanding. How is it that the only rebreather system (MCCR) to have an almost zero death record is the only system that is unable to pass the CE testing regime? (due to its configuration).
The regime that is suposed to demonstrate that the said rebreather is fit to use!!

just my opinion

Dave

***jradomski*** · 15th February 2008, 08:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t)

My personal opinion is the CE testing standards need changing or at least expanding. How is it that the only rebreather system (MCCR) to have an almost zero death record is the only system that is unable to pass the CE testing regime? (due to its configuration).
The regime that is suposed to demonstrate that the said rebreather is fit to use!!

just my opinion

Dave

Most of us on the other side of the pond see the CE certification as a protectionist tax.. Especially when every "certified" unit has some question about its certification...

dave t · 15th February 2008, 08:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Most of us on the other side of the pond see the CE certification as a protectionist tax.. Especially when every "certified" unit has some question about its certification...

Your probably right Joe

but dont misunderstand me I belive all rebreathers should go through formal testing before they are sold and the test results should be supplied with EVERY breather. I just think they should be realistic and not exclude excellent designs like Pauls rEvo and the kiss.
The (classic) kiss as an example has one of the most durable scrubbers out there. Why does it take someone who produces test figures to promote his own rebreather to show everybody what the rest can do.

Dave

***jradomski*** · 15th February 2008, 08:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t)

Your probably right Joe

but dont misunderstand me I belive all rebreathers should go through formal testing before they are sold and the test results should be supplied with EVERY breather. I just think they should be realistic and not exclude excellent designs like Pauls rEvo and the kiss.
The (classic) kiss as an example has one of the most durable scrubbers out there. Why does it take someone who produces test figures to promote his own rebreather to show everybody what the rest can do.

Dave

I totally agree...

Just a point if you aren't familiar...

the "classic" kiss scrubber layout wasn't first used by Jetsam... Its the same as a much older design... The shadow Pack by Divematics... That design has undergone alot of testing but since DM only sells to militaries he has to keep all the data inhouse.. and because of his military supplier certification... whenever he wants to leave the US with a rig, he needs written authorization because since he is certified his equipment is covered under weapons restrictions.

***EBT*** · 15th February 2008, 09:16

Standards are a good thing.

The issue is when people write them from the basis of their own inherent bias (created by experience) or when people try to write the "nirvana" spec, forgetting that the development and market cycle is iterative.

The other extreme is we'll move to pure marketing crap/snake oil salesmen.... either extreme is bad

The CCR CE is currently flawed imho, but at least its a common standard for people to test against/aspire to.

Dutchy · 15th February 2008, 09:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Most of us on the other side of the pond see the CE certification as a protectionist tax.. Especially when every "certified" unit has some question about its certification...

That's one way of seeing things. It isn't intended as such and it works well in making sure househould applicances and toys for children are safe (just to name a few). I would agree however that it has distinct disadvantages (it kills progress) and that some obscure niches are being governed by rules that favour the company that introduced a product, simply because it it was the reference.
I have no doubt that had the mCCR been introduced in Europe before any eCCR it would have been the reference. Ultimately we'll have a set of (worldwide) ISO standard to replace CE ones but I fear it is not going to happen anytime soon.

15th February 2008, 05:46	#21 (permalink)
kybrt too legit to quit Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Neuw Yawk Posts: 314	Re: and now the truth... abouth WOB what about the meg with a bov? an optima? an inpsiration? where does it end? paul tested, passed printed the resuts, and its still not enuff? C'mon now isnt it time to give paul credit for crossing from homebuild to true professional rebreather status, right up there with jetsam, ap valves and the rest? btw i think when paul says modified mini he is talking about the minirEvo with the new shearwater controller. does that mean that rEvo could acheive CE now? at least for the parachute system? paul great news, congratulations. __________________ Marv Fidelis Ad Mortem www.diveboatkaren.com Last edited by kybrt : 15th February 2008 at 05:50. Reason: sp
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15th February 2008, 06:28	#22 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 934	Re: and now the truth... abouth WOB For all of those that want to have a closer look at the rEvo. We made a video interview with Paul at Duikvaker last week. It will be available at Welcome to Submerge Productions in a week or two. Perhaps sooner. A direct link to the video section: Submerge Productions > Action! > Interviews Peter __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews at http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...nterviews.aspx >>>>> Wreck dive videos http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...omthedeep.aspx
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15th February 2008, 07:00	#23 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,432	Re: and now the truth... abouth WOB Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) Just one question, was that the result for the stock revo, or the modified one? some clarification: in normal diving conditions, breathing rates of 20-40 l/min, and tidal volumes of 1.5 - 2 liter, it is difficult to find big differences between rebreathers, they all breath +/- ok this is the reason why all divers find there rig breathing well! the real differences come at extreme breathing rates, big tidal volumes: for example for the CE WOB test, the strongest is 75/min, with 25breaths/min at tidal volume 3liter now the test just below is 62.5l/min, with 25breaths/min at tidal 2.5 liter well, this 62.5l test gives a WOB 40% less then the 75/l .. now the question is when do you use 75l/min??? never??? as pointed in my first mail, the 2.4 WOB is a modified, mini rEvo, adapted housing, adapted breathinghose, adapted mouthpiece etc the standard mini we actually supply, with the standard breathinghose, gives +/- 3.65 j/l another example of relevance or not of the 75l/min test: the 90° angle in the breathing hose, that makes the hoses fall perfectly over your shoulders, and gives you a 'sleek' profile what happens if you replace them by a straith connector?? at normal breathing rates, 20/30l/min, this changes the WOB with less then 0.1 J/liter, even 0.05.... at 75l/min, the 90° angle gives you extra WOB of 0.5 J/lit!!!... so?? should you have the strait connectors, with the worse profile and dangle around you head, to have no improvement at normal breathing rates, or the 90° elbow, clean profile, better vis around your head, that only gives better WOB at extreme, but really extreem breathing rates?? designing a system always means to compromise! regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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15th February 2008, 07:21	#24 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,871	Re: and now the truth... abouth WOB Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) some clarification: in normal diving conditions, breathing rates of 20-40 l/min, and tidal volumes of 1.5 - 2 liter, it is difficult to find big differences between rebreathers, they all breath +/- ok this is the reason why all divers find there rig breathing well! the real differences come at extreme breathing rates, big tidal volumes: for example for the CE WOB test, the strongest is 75/min, with 25breaths/min at tidal volume 3liter now the test just below is 62.5l/min, with 25breaths/min at tidal 2.5 liter well, this 62.5l test gives a WOB 40% less then the 75/l .. now the question is when do you use 75l/min??? never??? as pointed in my first mail, the 2.4 WOB is a modified, mini rEvo, adapted housing, adapted breathinghose, adapted mouthpiece etc the standard mini we actually supply, with the standard breathinghose, gives +/- 3.65 j/l another example of relevance or not of the 75l/min test: the 90° angle in the breathing hose, that makes the hoses fall perfectly over your shoulders, and gives you a 'sleek' profile what happens if you replace them by a straith connector?? at normal breathing rates, 20/30l/min, this changes the WOB with less then 0.1 J/liter, even 0.05.... at 75l/min, the 90° angle gives you extra WOB of 0.5 J/lit!!!... so?? should you have the strait connectors, with the worse profile and dangle around you head, to have no improvement at normal breathing rates, or the 90° elbow, clean profile, better vis around your head, that only gives better WOB at extreme, but really extreem breathing rates?? designing a system always means to compromise! regards paul Paul the answer is easy.. test it and sell it with the straight connector, and sell the rt angle connector as a plumbing fitting __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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15th February 2008, 08:28	#25 (permalink)
dave t Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 654	Re: and now the truth... abouth WOB My personal opinion is the CE testing standards need changing or at least expanding. How is it that the only rebreather system (MCCR) to have an almost zero death record is the only system that is unable to pass the CE testing regime? (due to its configuration). The regime that is suposed to demonstrate that the said rebreather is fit to use!! just my opinion Dave
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15th February 2008, 08:39	#26 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,871	Re: and now the truth... abouth WOB Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t) My personal opinion is the CE testing standards need changing or at least expanding. How is it that the only rebreather system (MCCR) to have an almost zero death record is the only system that is unable to pass the CE testing regime? (due to its configuration). The regime that is suposed to demonstrate that the said rebreather is fit to use!! just my opinion Dave Most of us on the other side of the pond see the CE certification as a protectionist tax.. Especially when every "certified" unit has some question about its certification... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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15th February 2008, 08:45	#27 (permalink)
dave t Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 654	Re: and now the truth... abouth WOB Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Most of us on the other side of the pond see the CE certification as a protectionist tax.. Especially when every "certified" unit has some question about its certification... Your probably right Joe but dont misunderstand me I belive all rebreathers should go through formal testing before they are sold and the test results should be supplied with EVERY breather. I just think they should be realistic and not exclude excellent designs like Pauls rEvo and the kiss. The (classic) kiss as an example has one of the most durable scrubbers out there. Why does it take someone who produces test figures to promote his own rebreather to show everybody what the rest can do. Dave
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15th February 2008, 08:52	#28 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,871	Re: and now the truth... abouth WOB Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t) Your probably right Joe but dont misunderstand me I belive all rebreathers should go through formal testing before they are sold and the test results should be supplied with EVERY breather. I just think they should be realistic and not exclude excellent designs like Pauls rEvo and the kiss. The (classic) kiss as an example has one of the most durable scrubbers out there. Why does it take someone who produces test figures to promote his own rebreather to show everybody what the rest can do. Dave I totally agree... Just a point if you aren't familiar... the "classic" kiss scrubber layout wasn't first used by Jetsam... Its the same as a much older design... The shadow Pack by Divematics... That design has undergone alot of testing but since DM only sells to militaries he has to keep all the data inhouse.. and because of his military supplier certification... whenever he wants to leave the US with a rig, he needs written authorization because since he is certified his equipment is covered under weapons restrictions. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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15th February 2008, 09:16	#29 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,903	Re: and now the truth... abouth WOB Standards are a good thing. The issue is when people write them from the basis of their own inherent bias (created by experience) or when people try to write the "nirvana" spec, forgetting that the development and market cycle is iterative. The other extreme is we'll move to pure marketing crap/snake oil salesmen.... either extreme is bad The CCR CE is currently flawed imho, but at least its a common standard for people to test against/aspire to. __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers Last edited by EBT : 15th February 2008 at 11:44.
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15th February 2008, 09:23	#30 (permalink)
Dutchy SK#007 Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 724	Re: and now the truth... abouth WOB Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Most of us on the other side of the pond see the CE certification as a protectionist tax.. Especially when every "certified" unit has some question about its certification... That's one way of seeing things. It isn't intended as such and it works well in making sure househould applicances and toys for children are safe (just to name a few). I would agree however that it has distinct disadvantages (it kills progress) and that some obscure niches are being governed by rules that favour the company that introduced a product, simply because it it was the reference. I have no doubt that had the mCCR been introduced in Europe before any eCCR it would have been the reference. Ultimately we'll have a set of (worldwide) ISO standard to replace CE ones but I fear it is not going to happen anytime soon. __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. = SK #007
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