rEvo II Sales/Resales conditions

decoweenie · 24th April 2007, 14:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by Woz)

So? It's still life support equiment and should be tested and CE marked accordingly.

No thanks, I am not going to get into the debate about CE-tested and certified. It has been done to death in the past.

People who live outside of EU do not care about CE anyway, but I agree with having proper testing done (by any reputable source - for all Rebreather units).

Woz · 24th April 2007, 14:10

I just think it's a cheek to say that they will sell you a unit that has not been tested to pass the legal requirements of rebreather life support equipment in the EU- so effectively you are going on the manufacturer's say-so whether it is suitable to keep you alive or not.

However they won't sell you this untested piece of equipment without doing a training course on something that may well indeed have a fatal design flaw that CE testing would uncover.

Now I'm not knocking the design- it's a lovely bit of kit- but I am knocking the sales and marketing. rEvo can't have it both ways. Either CE mark it and sell it via approved training courses or don't CE mark it and sell it as one step up from a "homebuild" to anyone who wants one.

paulraymaekers · 24th April 2007, 14:10

hmm, hmm, hmm...

guys, use your brains...

first: in court, where I live, waivers don't count, .. they can only help you a little bit to show the judje that you informed the user that it can be dangerous
same for the training: I take responsabilities: I can not know who is capable of diving a unit without training, so the rule is simple: every-body needs training
this also is a help in court to show that I did every thing possible to make the diver survive if things go wrong, for whatever reason

now take the resale to a non-trained diver, and I start servicing his unit, suppliing whatever he needs, and he dies on the unit because he does not know what PO2 means... in court this means negligence

so why would I set up a rule for training for new rEvo divers and not for second hand users: they are users just like the new ones...

is that so difficult to understand????

regards
paul

***Decodiver*** · 24th April 2007, 14:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by MattW)

The same applies regarding the lack of UK training - while I have heard nothing but good things about Dave Cooper and have the highest regard for him as an instructor, a trip to Geneva to get a MOD1 seems like a bit of an expensive PITA. Just as esc notes in his initial post, I have never owned / been trained in the use of any rebreather, and wouldn't dream of using my first unit without appropriate training, but with the best will in the world, I don't have spare £1000's to throw around.

Still, think it's got some great features though.....

Matt

Hi Matt,

UK training is available through me, in the UK.

Once you have placed your order I will arrange dates with you, remember that the Geneva option is there to facilitate your collection of the unit, I merely offer training there as we have a facility nearby.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

Woz · 24th April 2007, 14:12

Would they not also have a good case of negligence as you are getting round the required EU law by supplying via a non-EU country and selling an untested piece of life support equipment?

paulraymaekers · 24th April 2007, 14:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by Woz)

However they won't sell you this untested piece of equipment without doing a training course on something that may well indeed have a fatal design flaw that CE testing would uncover.

Now I'm not knocking the design- it's a lovely bit of kit- but I am knocking the sales and marketing. rEvo can't have it both ways. Either CE mark it and sell it via approved training courses or don't CE mark it and sell it as one step up from a "homebuild" to anyone who wants one.

a) the tests cover more then 2000 dives over 2 years (32 beta units and 5 alpha units) (of those >2000 dives > 300 dives between 80 and 122m, but we rate to 80m)

b) forget CE: not possible on mCCR, and the SCR route, whell that is really ...... (was going to type 'un-nice' word, but deleted in time)

please give correct info

paul

divetheworld · 24th April 2007, 14:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

hmm, hmm, hmm...

guys, use your brains...

first: in court, where I live, waivers don't count, .. they can only help you a little bit to show the judje that you informed the user that it can be dangerous
same for the training: I take responsabilities: I can not know who is capable of diving a unit without training, so the rule is simple: every-body needs training
this also is a help in court to show that I did every thing possible to make the diver survive if things go wrong, for whatever reason

now take the resale to a non-trained diver, and I start servicing his unit, suppliing whatever he needs, and he dies on the unit because he does not know what PO2 means... in court this means negligence

so why would I set up a rule for training for new rEvo divers and not for second hand users: they are users just like the new ones...

is that so difficult to understand????

regards
paul

You also didnt mention the £25,000 sterling that it would cost for the EC type examination. Thats the approximate costs if it does not require a re-test due to a failure.
That kind of investment might be planned, but doesnt happen overnight.

CE is only a "really good idea" at the moment, in respect to this very niche industry.

Brent

paulraymaekers · 24th April 2007, 14:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by Woz)

Would they not also have a good case of negligence as you are getting round the required EU law by supplying via a non-EU country and selling an untested piece of life support equipment?

no, because a) I act according to law because mccr CAN NOT get CE certification and so I have to use that route, and b) I can easely prove the testing of the unit

selling an untested piece of life support equipment
see my mails, unless you have an agenda :-) (I told this in a very nice way, did I not :-)

paul

decoweenie · 24th April 2007, 14:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

...now take the resale to a non-trained diver, and I start servicing his unit, suppliing whatever he needs, and he dies on the unit because he does not know what PO2 means... in court this means negligence...

Paul, I am just thinking aloud...

I have never been check for valid driver license when I go buy new tires or battery for my car. Or gasoline either...

And we are talking spare parts here - not servicing the unit.

Woz · 24th April 2007, 14:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

a) the tests cover more then 2000 dives over 2 years (32 beta units and 5 alpha units) (of those >2000 dives > 300 dives between 80 and 122m, but we rate to 80m)

b) forget CE: not possible on mCCR, and the SCR route, whell that is really ...... (was going to type 'un-nice' word, but deleted in time)

please give correct info

paul

However that's your testing, not testing done by an approved 3rd party to which they will nail their colours and say that it complies with the relevant EU standards.

It's not about how good the unit is. It's about bringing it to market in the EU via the "back door" to avoid the relevant legislation.

24th April 2007, 14:07	#11 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: rEvo II Sales/Resales conditions Quote: (Originally Posted by Woz) So? It's still life support equiment and should be tested and CE marked accordingly. No thanks, I am not going to get into the debate about CE-tested and certified. It has been done to death in the past. People who live outside of EU do not care about CE anyway, but I agree with having proper testing done (by any reputable source - for all Rebreather units). __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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24th April 2007, 14:10	#12 (permalink)
Woz Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Nottingham Posts: 186	Re: rEvo II Sales/Resales conditions I just think it's a cheek to say that they will sell you a unit that has not been tested to pass the legal requirements of rebreather life support equipment in the EU- so effectively you are going on the manufacturer's say-so whether it is suitable to keep you alive or not. However they won't sell you this untested piece of equipment without doing a training course on something that may well indeed have a fatal design flaw that CE testing would uncover. Now I'm not knocking the design- it's a lovely bit of kit- but I am knocking the sales and marketing. rEvo can't have it both ways. Either CE mark it and sell it via approved training courses or don't CE mark it and sell it as one step up from a "homebuild" to anyone who wants one. __________________ Still punting shiny diving tatt to gullible divers www.kitfondle.co.uk
(Offline)

24th April 2007, 14:10	#13 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,578	Re: rEvo II Sales/Resales conditions hmm, hmm, hmm... guys, use your brains... first: in court, where I live, waivers don't count, .. they can only help you a little bit to show the judje that you informed the user that it can be dangerous same for the training: I take responsabilities: I can not know who is capable of diving a unit without training, so the rule is simple: every-body needs training this also is a help in court to show that I did every thing possible to make the diver survive if things go wrong, for whatever reason now take the resale to a non-trained diver, and I start servicing his unit, suppliing whatever he needs, and he dies on the unit because he does not know what PO2 means... in court this means negligence so why would I set up a rule for training for new rEvo divers and not for second hand users: they are users just like the new ones... is that so difficult to understand???? regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
(Online)

24th April 2007, 14:11	#14 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,186	Re: rEvo II Sales/Resales conditions Quote: (Originally Posted by MattW) The same applies regarding the lack of UK training - while I have heard nothing but good things about Dave Cooper and have the highest regard for him as an instructor, a trip to Geneva to get a MOD1 seems like a bit of an expensive PITA. Just as esc notes in his initial post, I have never owned / been trained in the use of any rebreather, and wouldn't dream of using my first unit without appropriate training, but with the best will in the world, I don't have spare £1000's to throw around. Still, think it's got some great features though..... Matt Hi Matt, UK training is available through me, in the UK. Once you have placed your order I will arrange dates with you, remember that the Geneva option is there to facilitate your collection of the unit, I merely offer training there as we have a facility nearby. Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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24th April 2007, 14:12	#15 (permalink)
Woz Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Nottingham Posts: 186	Re: rEvo II Sales/Resales conditions Would they not also have a good case of negligence as you are getting round the required EU law by supplying via a non-EU country and selling an untested piece of life support equipment? __________________ Still punting shiny diving tatt to gullible divers www.kitfondle.co.uk
(Offline)

24th April 2007, 14:15	#16 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,578	Re: rEvo II Sales/Resales conditions Quote: (Originally Posted by Woz) However they won't sell you this untested piece of equipment without doing a training course on something that may well indeed have a fatal design flaw that CE testing would uncover. Now I'm not knocking the design- it's a lovely bit of kit- but I am knocking the sales and marketing. rEvo can't have it both ways. Either CE mark it and sell it via approved training courses or don't CE mark it and sell it as one step up from a "homebuild" to anyone who wants one. a) the tests cover more then 2000 dives over 2 years (32 beta units and 5 alpha units) (of those >2000 dives > 300 dives between 80 and 122m, but we rate to 80m) b) forget CE: not possible on mCCR, and the SCR route, whell that is really ...... (was going to type 'un-nice' word, but deleted in time) please give correct info paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
(Online)

24th April 2007, 14:16	#17 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,619	Re: rEvo II Sales/Resales conditions Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) hmm, hmm, hmm... guys, use your brains... first: in court, where I live, waivers don't count, .. they can only help you a little bit to show the judje that you informed the user that it can be dangerous same for the training: I take responsabilities: I can not know who is capable of diving a unit without training, so the rule is simple: every-body needs training this also is a help in court to show that I did every thing possible to make the diver survive if things go wrong, for whatever reason now take the resale to a non-trained diver, and I start servicing his unit, suppliing whatever he needs, and he dies on the unit because he does not know what PO2 means... in court this means negligence so why would I set up a rule for training for new rEvo divers and not for second hand users: they are users just like the new ones... is that so difficult to understand???? regards paul You also didnt mention the £25,000 sterling that it would cost for the EC type examination. Thats the approximate costs if it does not require a re-test due to a failure. That kind of investment might be planned, but doesnt happen overnight. CE is only a "really good idea" at the moment, in respect to this very niche industry. Brent __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
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24th April 2007, 14:20	#18 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,578	Re: rEvo II Sales/Resales conditions Quote: (Originally Posted by Woz) Would they not also have a good case of negligence as you are getting round the required EU law by supplying via a non-EU country and selling an untested piece of life support equipment? no, because a) I act according to law because mccr CAN NOT get CE certification and so I have to use that route, and b) I can easely prove the testing of the unit selling an untested piece of life support equipment see my mails, unless you have an agenda :-) (I told this in a very nice way, did I not :-) paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
(Online)

24th April 2007, 14:20	#19 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: rEvo II Sales/Resales conditions Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) ...now take the resale to a non-trained diver, and I start servicing his unit, suppliing whatever he needs, and he dies on the unit because he does not know what PO2 means... in court this means negligence... Paul, I am just thinking aloud... I have never been check for valid driver license when I go buy new tires or battery for my car. Or gasoline either... And we are talking spare parts here - not servicing the unit. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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24th April 2007, 14:21	#20 (permalink)
Woz Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Nottingham Posts: 186	Re: rEvo II Sales/Resales conditions Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) a) the tests cover more then 2000 dives over 2 years (32 beta units and 5 alpha units) (of those >2000 dives > 300 dives between 80 and 122m, but we rate to 80m) b) forget CE: not possible on mCCR, and the SCR route, whell that is really ...... (was going to type 'un-nice' word, but deleted in time) please give correct info paul However that's your testing, not testing done by an approved 3rd party to which they will nail their colours and say that it complies with the relevant EU standards. It's not about how good the unit is. It's about bringing it to market in the EU via the "back door" to avoid the relevant legislation. __________________ Still punting shiny diving tatt to gullible divers www.kitfondle.co.uk
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