Revo: Split from CE thread

**PhilSiswick** · 28th March 2007, 12:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

Maybe... but Jetsam KISS units are way behind APD and way ahead of Boris in numbers, I'm not sure they compete direclty with either.
Would CE'd Jetsam, rEvo, Submatics, Aquatek and anything else together add up to more than a pile of beans to APD? I think not.

Could someone publish the details of how to contact the UK BSI/CE committee?

Sorry, it wasn't meant to be a numbers argument. The point was that, in such a pioneering market, the pioneers tend to make the rules. On that basis, I doubt APD would stretch too far to open the floodgates to allow KISS units in - who can blame them? Of course, there won't have been too many APD units out there when the standard was written ;-)

Together, the manufacturers of the other units, regardless of numbers, should get together, get represented on the SC7 committee and get the standard changed, or alternative standards added.

Cheers,

***caveseeker7*** · 28th March 2007, 13:41

The manufacturers getting together is a noble thought, Phil, but that has been tried before, starting years ago. The idea back then was to self-impose some standards for safety before government(s - though back then mostly US) start meddling with rebreathers. Never went anywhere as egos clashed. Lots of history as well as some bad blood between several of the people in the industry.

Back in 05 when Stuart and I went to DEMA we were looking at getting the manufacturers together, at least for a dinner and round table conversation. Didn't work out, even though we were "neutral" ...

Maybe times have changed a bit again, maybe these days there would be a good reason for manufacturer to get to the table such as the CE/mCCR issue, but I have my doubts. Am not even sure you could get all the mCCR manufacturers on one table from what I've seen in the past.

If anything, we as the users, maybe with support from a manufacturer or two, would have to approach the problem. Otherwise I'm afraid we, and the rigs we like to dive, may be left out in the cold.

***schford*** · 28th March 2007, 18:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick)

Does that mean that Kevin is on the BSI committee?

No sorry I meant that Industry eg Kevin goes to the BSI commiteee to get them to do stuff.

**jmurba** · 28th March 2007, 19:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

I agree with you, Jean-Mi, but I think the situation is even worse.
That damn CE bs is written in the typical you-gotta-be-a-lawyer-to-read-it-without-getting-a-headache language, yet you gotta be an engineer to understand it. That's wrong, absolute bs.

Yes I am a lawyer, I buddy is a space engineer in satellite electronics and we still think things are not perfectly clear (((((-:

But Schford is on the rigth track, he if the notified body is ok, the breather is EC, so it is with th notified body that one have to discuss...as for the pure Kiss, not a kind of scr , I think it is not worth discussing, real notified body are forced to admit that it is not possible to give a kiss the marking...

It is a petty not to be able to chose btw eccr and mccr....

In france no non ec rebreather is accepted in a dive center, it means that a kiss diver that has no boat has to buy a submatix.....no thanks !!!

it is apetty to have to buy a submatix to be able to dive kiss style in a french club ((((-: .... french exception ((((-: I should have accepted the treaty ((((-:

I am gonna write a letter to the ministery of jeunesse et sport to officialy ask if i can legaly set up a club with 15 submatix to rent to all my clients...and saying i have a doubt as for the submatix marking and a doubt for my clients safety....it could be funny (((-:

just Kidding of course...(((((-:

regards

**PhilSiswick** · 28th March 2007, 20:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

No sorry I meant that Industry eg Kevin goes to the BSI commiteee to get them to do stuff.

Ah, thanks.

Cheers,

**PhilSiswick** · 28th March 2007, 20:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

The manufacturers getting together is a noble thought, Phil, but that has been tried before, starting years ago. The idea back then was to self-impose some standards for safety before government(s - though back then mostly US) start meddling with rebreathers. Never went anywhere as egos clashed. Lots of history as well as some bad blood between several of the people in the industry.

Back in 05 when Stuart and I went to DEMA we were looking at getting the manufacturers together, at least for a dinner and round table conversation. Didn't work out, even though we were "neutral" ...

That seems a little short-sighted of them in such a small industry. Ah well, at least you tried for the common good.

Quote:

If anything, we as the users, maybe with support from a manufacturer or two, would have to approach the problem. Otherwise I'm afraid we, and the rigs we like to dive, may be left out in the cold.

That seems to be the sensible way. At least if the door was opened, the manufacturers might then put their units forward for certification. At the moment, they can legitimately hide behind the defence that certification isn't possible because of one requirement - the users then lose out on the benefits of assessment of the overall unit against the objective criteria.

Cheers,

***schford*** · 28th March 2007, 20:05

All the manufacturers came to the DEMA party last year and I am pretty sure I spied most of them talking to each other at some point in the evening.

Hopefully it will be the same this year with them supporting it but this time much bigger and better!

**jmurba** · 28th March 2007, 21:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

3. If a KISS unit is approved, the monitoring electronics would still need to meet EN61508.
Alex

Heu an approuved oxymeter with the rebreater then...as far as I know for example draeger oxygauge has no EC marking, at the time I used one I have looked to the entire maual and found not trace of an EC marking on it...thanks of god i quickly made my electronics and houssings
it is the same for the uwatec oxy2....
so every one is on the black side of the force

regards

jean mi

Nad · 29th March 2007, 00:58

Hey Stuart,
After many thread and discussion about CE testing etc, what's about to create a forum just for this?

Nad

gibbogeo · 30th March 2007, 15:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba)

In france no non ec rebreather is accepted in a dive center, it means that a kiss diver that has no boat has to buy a submatix.....

Would it be enough to buy only the sticker "submatix" and put it on the canister of my KISS?

28th March 2007, 12:57	#31 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 991	Re: Revo: Split from CE thread Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) Maybe... but Jetsam KISS units are way behind APD and way ahead of Boris in numbers, I'm not sure they compete direclty with either. Would CE'd Jetsam, rEvo, Submatics, Aquatek and anything else together add up to more than a pile of beans to APD? I think not. Could someone publish the details of how to contact the UK BSI/CE committee? Sorry, it wasn't meant to be a numbers argument. The point was that, in such a pioneering market, the pioneers tend to make the rules. On that basis, I doubt APD would stretch too far to open the floodgates to allow KISS units in - who can blame them? Of course, there won't have been too many APD units out there when the standard was written ;-) Together, the manufacturers of the other units, regardless of numbers, should get together, get represented on the SC7 committee and get the standard changed, or alternative standards added. Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
(Online)

28th March 2007, 13:41	#32 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,496	The manufacturers getting together is a noble thought, Phil, but that has been tried before, starting years ago. The idea back then was to self-impose some standards for safety before government(s - though back then mostly US) start meddling with rebreathers. Never went anywhere as egos clashed. Lots of history as well as some bad blood between several of the people in the industry. Back in 05 when Stuart and I went to DEMA we were looking at getting the manufacturers together, at least for a dinner and round table conversation. Didn't work out, even though we were "neutral" ... Maybe times have changed a bit again, maybe these days there would be a good reason for manufacturer to get to the table such as the CE/mCCR issue, but I have my doubts. Am not even sure you could get all the mCCR manufacturers on one table from what I've seen in the past. If anything, we as the users, maybe with support from a manufacturer or two, would have to approach the problem. Otherwise I'm afraid we, and the rigs we like to dive, may be left out in the cold. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
(Offline)

28th March 2007, 18:16	#33 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Re: Revo: Split from CE thread Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick) Does that mean that Kevin is on the BSI committee? No sorry I meant that Industry eg Kevin goes to the BSI commiteee to get them to do stuff. __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
(Offline)

28th March 2007, 19:52	#34 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 860	Re: Revo: Split from CE thread Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) I agree with you, Jean-Mi, but I think the situation is even worse. That damn CE bs is written in the typical you-gotta-be-a-lawyer-to-read-it-without-getting-a-headache language, yet you gotta be an engineer to understand it. That's wrong, absolute bs. Yes I am a lawyer, I buddy is a space engineer in satellite electronics and we still think things are not perfectly clear (((((-: But Schford is on the rigth track, he if the notified body is ok, the breather is EC, so it is with th notified body that one have to discuss...as for the pure Kiss, not a kind of scr , I think it is not worth discussing, real notified body are forced to admit that it is not possible to give a kiss the marking... It is a petty not to be able to chose btw eccr and mccr.... In france no non ec rebreather is accepted in a dive center, it means that a kiss diver that has no boat has to buy a submatix.....no thanks !!! it is apetty to have to buy a submatix to be able to dive kiss style in a french club ((((-: .... french exception ((((-: I should have accepted the treaty ((((-: I am gonna write a letter to the ministery of jeunesse et sport to officialy ask if i can legaly set up a club with 15 submatix to rent to all my clients...and saying i have a doubt as for the submatix marking and a doubt for my clients safety....it could be funny (((-: just Kidding of course...(((((-: regards __________________ when will I be able to think about something else then spending hours underwater, when will I be normal ? http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_2/home.html http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/home.html
(Online)

28th March 2007, 20:00	#35 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 991	Re: Revo: Split from CE thread Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) No sorry I meant that Industry eg Kevin goes to the BSI commiteee to get them to do stuff. Ah, thanks. Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
(Online)

28th March 2007, 20:03	#36 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 991	Re: Revo: Split from CE thread Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) The manufacturers getting together is a noble thought, Phil, but that has been tried before, starting years ago. The idea back then was to self-impose some standards for safety before government(s - though back then mostly US) start meddling with rebreathers. Never went anywhere as egos clashed. Lots of history as well as some bad blood between several of the people in the industry. Back in 05 when Stuart and I went to DEMA we were looking at getting the manufacturers together, at least for a dinner and round table conversation. Didn't work out, even though we were "neutral" ... That seems a little short-sighted of them in such a small industry. Ah well, at least you tried for the common good. Quote: If anything, we as the users, maybe with support from a manufacturer or two, would have to approach the problem. Otherwise I'm afraid we, and the rigs we like to dive, may be left out in the cold. That seems to be the sensible way. At least if the door was opened, the manufacturers might then put their units forward for certification. At the moment, they can legitimately hide behind the defence that certification isn't possible because of one requirement - the users then lose out on the benefits of assessment of the overall unit against the objective criteria. Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
(Online)

28th March 2007, 20:05	#37 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Re: Revo: Split from CE thread All the manufacturers came to the DEMA party last year and I am pretty sure I spied most of them talking to each other at some point in the evening. Hopefully it will be the same this year with them supporting it but this time much bigger and better! __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
(Offline)

28th March 2007, 21:53	#38 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 860	Re: Revo: Split from CE thread Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) 3. If a KISS unit is approved, the monitoring electronics would still need to meet EN61508. Alex Heu an approuved oxymeter with the rebreater then...as far as I know for example draeger oxygauge has no EC marking, at the time I used one I have looked to the entire maual and found not trace of an EC marking on it...thanks of god i quickly made my electronics and houssings it is the same for the uwatec oxy2.... so every one is on the black side of the force regards jean mi __________________ when will I be able to think about something else then spending hours underwater, when will I be normal ? http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_2/home.html http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/home.html
(Online)

29th March 2007, 00:58	#39 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 982	Re: Revo: Split from CE thread Hey Stuart, After many thread and discussion about CE testing etc, what's about to create a forum just for this? Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
(Online)

30th March 2007, 15:00	#40 (permalink)
gibbogeo Gilberto Bonaga, Italy Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: italy Posts: 318	Re: Revo: Split from CE thread Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba) In france no non ec rebreather is accepted in a dive center, it means that a kiss diver that has no boat has to buy a submatix..... Would it be enough to buy only the sticker "submatix" and put it on the canister of my KISS?
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