rEvo expedition/exploration rebreather

paulraymaekers · 20th February 2007, 12:01

hello all, this post is ment as a demand for input in our next devellopment

We start the study to produce an expedition/exploration rebreather, (ready to test begin 2008)
We think that up to 100m a standard breather can be used with sufficient OC bail-out, but once deeper the OC bail-out becomes the limiting factor
the name is not final yet :-)

purpose: to make a breather usable up to 200 m, without exess OC bailout

compact design (like the standart rEvo), incorporating 2 completely independant CCR, back mounted counterlung, each breather having a radial scrubber with +/- 3 kg sorb, inboard oxigen and dil for both breathers, off-board connections for both oxigen and dil,
manual addition of ox and dil for both breathers, ADV on both breathers,

switching from one to the other by means of a 'BOV' design, but where breathing hoses of both breathers are connected to the mouthpiece,

(probably only with FFM)

choice between mCCR and eCCR...

feel free to add your remarks, recommandations etc...
(specially for the guys that actually do +120m / +5hours dives..)

regards

paul

Drmike · 20th February 2007, 12:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

2 completely independant CCR, back mounted counterlung, each breather having a radial scrubber with +/- 3 kg sorb, inboard oxigen and dil for both breathers, off-board connections for both oxigen and dil,
manual addition of ox and dil for both breathers, ADV on both breathers,

switching from one to the other by means of a 'BOV' design, but where breathing hoses of both breathers are connected to the mouthpiece,

(probably only with FFM)

Sounds exactly like what Im building

I agree 100% with your specs and motivation. Its a pain in the ass having to stage so many deep tanks for big dives - and you need a shed load of regs etc. and IMO nobody is actually staging or carrying 1.5x the amount they would actually need on big dives - That would be an insane amount of tanks. Twin ccr is the way to go IMHO.

I would add weight limit of less than 25kg and easy user repairable in the field/remote site.

I have been working on a BOV for the Panorama that has two ccr inlets yet still independant failure. I think its vital that the diver can switch between the primary and secondary quickly and easily (with a type of bov) during the descent to verify both are working - turn if one fails.

DrJM · 20th February 2007, 12:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

to make a breather usable up to 200 m

C'mon a bit more, please

the problem below -180m will become the scooters, the silent submersion deep version are doing it up to now (max tested -190m) but up to where we don't know, swimming deeper than -160/-180 is too risky !!! CO2 hit is too near

So to come-back to your -200 I don't see why not -250m or -270 as long as you go down and up ex Dave Shaw / Cedric Verdier

Don't do only FFM, keep on working on a dual Rebreather with a common BOV in the mouth

OPV in exhale counterlung, so being in flat position we can get read it of any water (or through up orange juice)

Manual add buton on the front chest, not behind

Shut off valve for O2/solenoid and Dil/ADV so we can still add gas manually if Solenoid and/or ADV not working properly w/out shutting down the tanks

MP4/DivX player on HUD for >2h1/2 deco

I'll think about other sensible ideas

Keep on the good work Paul, and look forward to test it in Landenouse-Vettier-rEvo-test-center

Jerome

DrJM · 20th February 2007, 12:39

What about a solenoid injecting diluent if the Ppo2 < 0.4 and > 1.5 on the second loop, therefore if yoyo cave profile it will maintain bup loop breathable ?

DrJM · 20th February 2007, 12:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Sounds exactly like what Im building

Sounds good Mike, like that you could go back in Sra Khea to look for side passage on the bottom

Drmike · 20th February 2007, 12:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by DrJM)

Sounds good Mike, like that you could go back in Sra Khea to look for side passage on the bottom

yup - with a fraction of the cost and minimal logistics yup!

Thats the plan. Got another possible submarine in some deep water first to check out

Drmike · 20th February 2007, 12:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by DrJM)

What about a solenoid injecting diluent if the Ppo2 < 0.4 and > 1.5 on the second loop, therefore if yoyo cave profile it will maintain bup loop breathable ?

I figure on a deep dive there is no need to worry about loop ppo2 in the bailout loop. The ADV should be rock solid and take care of that. It takes seconds to manually boost the loop ppo2 to a good level - a few secs breathing the wrong ppo2 at depth will make no difference to deco due to the fact (on deep dives) the bottom ppo2 has little effect on deco. Last week in Sra Keow I was switching to a cold bob and manually boosting the ppo2 - it took practically no time at all.

I worry about having solenoids injecting precious sparse O2 into a loop you may not be monitoring at depth. I like to KISS. No solenoid just a rock solid simple bullet proof loop.

**Dave Sutton** · 20th February 2007, 13:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

I figure on a deep dive there is no need to worry about loop ppo2 in the bailout loop. The ADV should be rock solid and take care of that. It takes seconds to manually boost the loop ppo2 to a good level - a few secs breathing the wrong ppo2 at depth will make no difference to deco due to the fact (on deep dives) the bottom ppo2 has little effect on deco. Last week in Sra Keow I was switching to a cold bob and manually boosting the ppo2 - it took practically no time at all.

I agree 100%. That's exactly how my Mark-15 bailout bag (chest worn rig fed by 02 and Dil shared from the main rig gas supply) works, and it's been well proven. The ADV *feeding any reasonable diluent* to the bag is the way to iinitially establish the loop. All needs to do is to keep the diver alive for 3 minutes before he settles down and gets stabilized. A KISS system for the bailout 02 add and a eCCR for the normal loop is ideal. And has been said, who cares what the loop PP02 is on the bottom? At least in the short period it's irrelevent for all divers and for non-cave divers it's completely irrelevent as ascent within perhaps 5 minutes will be the result of bailing out.

PLEASE do not force the use of a FFM. I, for one, would rule out the rig if it required FFM use. Optionally? Sure. Mandatory? That's a show stopper for me. My current bailout rig uses a pendulum scrubber, with the single hose to the chest bag fed to the bottom of an old Halcyon BOV, onto a plate that replaces the old second stage assembly. Flipping the knob of the BOV selects either "Loop A" or "Loop B". I have a ball valve in the pendulum hose so when the rig is selected to "B" and the valve is "Closed" both loops are sealed. I assume that you are not planning a pendulum, but a simple sliding spool in a dual-fed DSV can select either of two loops with a third position for "closed". I have it drawn up but not made yet. Back to the FFM subject: PLEASE don't force it's use!

Dave

paulraymaekers · 20th February 2007, 13:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

I would add weight limit of less than 25kg and easy user repairable in the field/remote site.

without tanks that is no problem :-)

the standard rEvo without tanks is 17 kg, titanium reg is <15kg

regards
paul

paulraymaekers · 20th February 2007, 13:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

PLEASE do not force the use of a FFM. I, for one, would rule out the rig if it required FFM use. Optionally? Sure. Mandatory? That's a show stopper for me. My current bailout rig uses a pendulum scrubber, with the single hose to the chest bag fed to the bottom of an old Halcyon BOV, onto a plate that replaces the old second stage assembly. Flipping the knob of the BOV selects either "Loop A" or "Loop B". I have a ball valve in the pendulum hose so when the rig is selected to "B" and the valve is "Closed" both loops are sealed. I assume that you are not planning a pendulum, but a simple sliding spool in a dual-fed DSV can select either of two loops with a third position for "closed". I have it drawn up but not made yet. Back to the FFM subject: PLEASE don't force it's use!

Dave

not forced: the reason for the FFM wil (perhaps) be a more practical one: having 4 breathing hoses in front of you, so that you can just switch for one to other by flipping the BOV handle, will cause more drag when moving, will cause more fatigue on your moutsmuscles (??), especially on very long dives: in that case a FFM will be far more ergonomic!

just imagine the P-plug in the panorama, works perfect without fatique!

you can imagine a bite-piece in stead of the p-plug...

better try it before :-)

regards
paul

20th February 2007, 12:01	#1 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,498	rEvo expedition/exploration rebreather hello all, this post is ment as a demand for input in our next devellopment We start the study to produce an expedition/exploration rebreather, (ready to test begin 2008) We think that up to 100m a standard breather can be used with sufficient OC bail-out, but once deeper the OC bail-out becomes the limiting factor the name is not final yet :-) purpose: to make a breather usable up to 200 m, without exess OC bailout compact design (like the standart rEvo), incorporating 2 completely independant CCR, back mounted counterlung, each breather having a radial scrubber with +/- 3 kg sorb, inboard oxigen and dil for both breathers, off-board connections for both oxigen and dil, manual addition of ox and dil for both breathers, ADV on both breathers, switching from one to the other by means of a 'BOV' design, but where breathing hoses of both breathers are connected to the mouthpiece, (probably only with FFM) choice between mCCR and eCCR... feel free to add your remarks, recommandations etc... (specially for the guys that actually do +120m / +5hours dives..) regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials... Last edited by paulraymaekers : 20th February 2007 at 12:24.
(Offline)

20th February 2007, 12:34	#2 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,301	Re: rEvo expedition/exploration rebreather Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) 2 completely independant CCR, back mounted counterlung, each breather having a radial scrubber with +/- 3 kg sorb, inboard oxigen and dil for both breathers, off-board connections for both oxigen and dil, manual addition of ox and dil for both breathers, ADV on both breathers, switching from one to the other by means of a 'BOV' design, but where breathing hoses of both breathers are connected to the mouthpiece, (probably only with FFM) Sounds exactly like what Im building I agree 100% with your specs and motivation. Its a pain in the ass having to stage so many deep tanks for big dives - and you need a shed load of regs etc. and IMO nobody is actually staging or carrying 1.5x the amount they would actually need on big dives - That would be an insane amount of tanks. Twin ccr is the way to go IMHO. I would add weight limit of less than 25kg and easy user repairable in the field/remote site. I have been working on a BOV for the Panorama that has two ccr inlets yet still independant failure. I think its vital that the diver can switch between the primary and secondary quickly and easily (with a type of bov) during the descent to verify both are working - turn if one fails. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 20th February 2007 at 12:40.
(Offline)

20th February 2007, 12:36	#3 (permalink)
DrJM Deep Cave Explorer Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Join Date: May 2005 Location: France Posts: 344	Re: rEvo expedition/exploration rebreather Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) to make a breather usable up to 200 m C'mon a bit more, please the problem below -180m will become the scooters, the silent submersion deep version are doing it up to now (max tested -190m) but up to where we don't know, swimming deeper than -160/-180 is too risky !!! CO2 hit is too near So to come-back to your -200 I don't see why not -250m or -270 as long as you go down and up ex Dave Shaw / Cedric Verdier Don't do only FFM, keep on working on a dual Rebreather with a common BOV in the mouth OPV in exhale counterlung, so being in flat position we can get read it of any water (or through up orange juice) Manual add buton on the front chest, not behind Shut off valve for O2/solenoid and Dil/ADV so we can still add gas manually if Solenoid and/or ADV not working properly w/out shutting down the tanks MP4/DivX player on HUD for >2h1/2 deco I'll think about other sensible ideas Keep on the good work Paul, and look forward to test it in Landenouse-Vettier-rEvo-test-center Jerome __________________ www.snoopyloop.com Deep Cave Exploration
(Offline)

20th February 2007, 12:39	#4 (permalink)
DrJM Deep Cave Explorer Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Join Date: May 2005 Location: France Posts: 344	Re: rEvo expedition/exploration rebreather What about a solenoid injecting diluent if the Ppo2 < 0.4 and > 1.5 on the second loop, therefore if yoyo cave profile it will maintain bup loop breathable ? __________________ www.snoopyloop.com Deep Cave Exploration
(Offline)

20th February 2007, 12:40	#5 (permalink)
DrJM Deep Cave Explorer Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Join Date: May 2005 Location: France Posts: 344	Re: rEvo expedition/exploration rebreather Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Sounds exactly like what Im building Sounds good Mike, like that you could go back in Sra Khea to look for side passage on the bottom __________________ www.snoopyloop.com Deep Cave Exploration
(Offline)

20th February 2007, 12:43	#6 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,301	Re: rEvo expedition/exploration rebreather Quote: (Originally Posted by DrJM) Sounds good Mike, like that you could go back in Sra Khea to look for side passage on the bottom yup - with a fraction of the cost and minimal logistics yup! Thats the plan. Got another possible submarine in some deep water first to check out __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

20th February 2007, 12:49	#7 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,301	Re: rEvo expedition/exploration rebreather Quote: (Originally Posted by DrJM) What about a solenoid injecting diluent if the Ppo2 < 0.4 and > 1.5 on the second loop, therefore if yoyo cave profile it will maintain bup loop breathable ? I figure on a deep dive there is no need to worry about loop ppo2 in the bailout loop. The ADV should be rock solid and take care of that. It takes seconds to manually boost the loop ppo2 to a good level - a few secs breathing the wrong ppo2 at depth will make no difference to deco due to the fact (on deep dives) the bottom ppo2 has little effect on deco. Last week in Sra Keow I was switching to a cold bob and manually boosting the ppo2 - it took practically no time at all. I worry about having solenoids injecting precious sparse O2 into a loop you may not be monitoring at depth. I like to KISS. No solenoid just a rock solid simple bullet proof loop. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

20th February 2007, 13:27	#8 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,689	Re: rEvo expedition/exploration rebreather Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) I figure on a deep dive there is no need to worry about loop ppo2 in the bailout loop. The ADV should be rock solid and take care of that. It takes seconds to manually boost the loop ppo2 to a good level - a few secs breathing the wrong ppo2 at depth will make no difference to deco due to the fact (on deep dives) the bottom ppo2 has little effect on deco. Last week in Sra Keow I was switching to a cold bob and manually boosting the ppo2 - it took practically no time at all. I agree 100%. That's exactly how my Mark-15 bailout bag (chest worn rig fed by 02 and Dil shared from the main rig gas supply) works, and it's been well proven. The ADV feeding any reasonable diluent to the bag is the way to iinitially establish the loop. All needs to do is to keep the diver alive for 3 minutes before he settles down and gets stabilized. A KISS system for the bailout 02 add and a eCCR for the normal loop is ideal. And has been said, who cares what the loop PP02 is on the bottom? At least in the short period it's irrelevent for all divers and for non-cave divers it's completely irrelevent as ascent within perhaps 5 minutes will be the result of bailing out. PLEASE do not force the use of a FFM. I, for one, would rule out the rig if it required FFM use. Optionally? Sure. Mandatory? That's a show stopper for me. My current bailout rig uses a pendulum scrubber, with the single hose to the chest bag fed to the bottom of an old Halcyon BOV, onto a plate that replaces the old second stage assembly. Flipping the knob of the BOV selects either "Loop A" or "Loop B". I have a ball valve in the pendulum hose so when the rig is selected to "B" and the valve is "Closed" both loops are sealed. I assume that you are not planning a pendulum, but a simple sliding spool in a dual-fed DSV can select either of two loops with a third position for "closed". I have it drawn up but not made yet. Back to the FFM subject: PLEASE don't force it's use! Dave __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com
(Offline)

20th February 2007, 13:28	#9 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,498	Re: rEvo expedition/exploration rebreather Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) I would add weight limit of less than 25kg and easy user repairable in the field/remote site. without tanks that is no problem :-) the standard rEvo without tanks is 17 kg, titanium reg is <15kg regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
(Offline)

20th February 2007, 13:34	#10 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,498	Re: rEvo expedition/exploration rebreather Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) PLEASE do not force the use of a FFM. I, for one, would rule out the rig if it required FFM use. Optionally? Sure. Mandatory? That's a show stopper for me. My current bailout rig uses a pendulum scrubber, with the single hose to the chest bag fed to the bottom of an old Halcyon BOV, onto a plate that replaces the old second stage assembly. Flipping the knob of the BOV selects either "Loop A" or "Loop B". I have a ball valve in the pendulum hose so when the rig is selected to "B" and the valve is "Closed" both loops are sealed. I assume that you are not planning a pendulum, but a simple sliding spool in a dual-fed DSV can select either of two loops with a third position for "closed". I have it drawn up but not made yet. Back to the FFM subject: PLEASE don't force it's use! Dave not forced: the reason for the FFM wil (perhaps) be a more practical one: having 4 breathing hoses in front of you, so that you can just switch for one to other by flipping the BOV handle, will cause more drag when moving, will cause more fatigue on your moutsmuscles (??), especially on very long dives: in that case a FFM will be far more ergonomic! just imagine the P-plug in the panorama, works perfect without fatique! you can imagine a bite-piece in stead of the p-plug... better try it before :-) regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

LinkBacks (?) LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/revo-rebreather/10124-revo-expedition-exploration-rebreather.html
Posted By	For	Type	Date
rEvo Rebreather [Archive] - Page 2 - Rebreather World	This thread	Refback	5th May 2008 11:25
rEvo Rebreather [Archive] - Rebreather World Forums	This thread	Refback	9th May 2007 22:56