The Cell Checker

Tino de Rijk · 1st November 2007, 11:38

Understand that very well, Brent.
I'm not looking (yet

) for a manual with full technical background on the "bowels" of the unit, but just for a user/operations manual: the process flow a user needs to go thorugh to test his/her cells. Similar to the Pursuit controller operations manual you also brought out. The info on the website is too compact to decide if is is easy and foolproof enough, even though first looks are very, very good. Im' talking about the stuff I suspect you send with every unit out to the new users, so not a lot of secrecy there anyway....

I do though understand your feeling. As you know I wrote some maintenance manuals for APD (ADV & 1st stages), and agreed with them to leave distribution controlled, by them, only for registered users. Within a couple of months a Scandinavian user puts a complete copy here on Rebreather World, without even bothering to ask permission..... The risk is a.o. that this version gets outdated (APD already updated one of the manuals), with people doing the wrong maintenance....

It seems "Internet" equates total lack of respect for intellectual property & copyright..... I didn't even bother protesting it.

Ciao,

Tino.

Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld)

Sorry Tino, I just saw your post and it reminded me to reply to you.
The manual has a lot of intellectual property in it in respect to the calculations we have done to make use of the cell checker. A lot of the value in the product is in the test methods and not just the hardware so we are reluctant to release electronic copies of the manual for fear of plagarism.
Send me an email and I will give you a copy of a cut down version which should give you most of the information that would be needed without the hardware.
brent at narkedat90.co.uk
I hope you understand.

Brent

narked at 90 · 3rd November 2007, 22:39

Hi Tino, has brent sent you a E-manual already?
if your thinking of buying a unit we only have a couple left from this batch, if i need to hold one for you please let me know.
kindest regards john routley

Tino de Rijk · 22nd November 2007, 11:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by narked at 90)

Hi Tino, has brent sent you a E-manual already?
if your thinking of buying a unit we only have a couple left from this batch, if i need to hold one for you please let me know.
kindest regards john routley

Yep, received the manual o.k. Thanks, both!

and thanks very much for the offer, John, and am indeed very tempted, but have to wait till Santaclaus (or the bonus-man, IF he comes along - as I work for a bank.....) passes by.... So I'll consider a next batch.

Operational question though: the usefullness of your new toy is extra highlighted by the current debate about the bad batches of AI cells that have surfaced around the globe.
You guys have done a lot of testing with known & popular cells, to determine & establish your linearity graphs.

Based on that experience, is there a timelimit you suggest to leave the cells in the pot before you can sort of decide with a reasonable (and I stress reasonable, because it will never be 100%) level of trust that they are o.k.?
The manual is not clear on that (unless I overlooked).
I.e. do you typically leave them in an hour, or a night, or 24 hours? What based on your experience is "common wisdom"...?

ciao,

Tino.

narked at 90 · 22nd November 2007, 20:44

Hi Tino, a liniarity test only takes a couple of minutes, but i tend to keep my cells at high out put for 10mins to make sure they read high and stay there,
keeping cells at 2bar over night is just a good way to kill your cells off early.
we now have software we send out with the cell checkers to make the logging and plotting the results and gives a pass or fail for the cells and a % of how far out of spec they are.
kind regards john routley

Tino de Rijk · 23rd November 2007, 11:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by narked at 90)

Hi Tino, a liniarity test only takes a couple of minutes, but i tend to keep my cells at high out put for 10mins to make sure they read high and stay there,
keeping cells at 2bar over night is just a good way to kill your cells off early.
we now have software we send out with the cell checkers to make the logging and plotting the results and gives a pass or fail for the cells and a % of how far out of spec they are.
kind regards john routley

Agree with your approach, but would suggest to split it in two:
- initial tests (for new cells, with as yet unknown quality);
- repeat tests (for cells in use, for which you want to test if they're still o.k. and not approaching their current limit).
What you describe above would fit the latter.
However, as the AI cell saga shows, a new cell might need some extra scrutiny to see if it didn't came in with some hidden off-factory problems. Maybe a whole night at 2 bar is a bit over the top, but I would at least have it make a long "virtual" dive, i.e. a couple of hours at 1.5-1.6 bar or so, i.e. a bit above the actual operational high setpoint.

Again: never a 100% guarantee, but will also not hurt the cell more than having it make such a dive in real life. My guess/assumption is that a factory fault has a good chance of showing uo in such a test.
Is this b.s. of do you think this dual approach would make sense, John?
Nice thing is you can do both with your checker!
Ciao,

Tino.

1st November 2007, 11:38	#31 (permalink)
Tino de Rijk Old, maybe one day wise Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 329	Re: The Cell Checker manual Understand that very well, Brent. I'm not looking (yet ) for a manual with full technical background on the "bowels" of the unit, but just for a user/operations manual: the process flow a user needs to go thorugh to test his/her cells. Similar to the Pursuit controller operations manual you also brought out. The info on the website is too compact to decide if is is easy and foolproof enough, even though first looks are very, very good. Im' talking about the stuff I suspect you send with every unit out to the new users, so not a lot of secrecy there anyway.... I do though understand your feeling. As you know I wrote some maintenance manuals for APD (ADV & 1st stages), and agreed with them to leave distribution controlled, by them, only for registered users. Within a couple of months a Scandinavian user puts a complete copy here on Rebreather World, without even bothering to ask permission..... The risk is a.o. that this version gets outdated (APD already updated one of the manuals), with people doing the wrong maintenance.... It seems "Internet" equates total lack of respect for intellectual property & copyright..... I didn't even bother protesting it. Ciao, Tino. Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld) Sorry Tino, I just saw your post and it reminded me to reply to you. The manual has a lot of intellectual property in it in respect to the calculations we have done to make use of the cell checker. A lot of the value in the product is in the test methods and not just the hardware so we are reluctant to release electronic copies of the manual for fear of plagarism. Send me an email and I will give you a copy of a cut down version which should give you most of the information that would be needed without the hardware. brent at narkedat90.co.uk I hope you understand. Brent Last edited by Tino de Rijk : 1st November 2007 at 11:46.
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3rd November 2007, 22:39	#32 (permalink)
narked at 90 In my own little world Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: middlands uk Posts: 1,010	Re: The Cell Checker Hi Tino, has brent sent you a E-manual already? if your thinking of buying a unit we only have a couple left from this batch, if i need to hold one for you please let me know. kindest regards john routley __________________ CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *WWW.GRPSERVICES.COM*
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22nd November 2007, 11:21	#33 (permalink)
Tino de Rijk Old, maybe one day wise Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 329	Re: The Cell Checker Quote: (Originally Posted by narked at 90) Hi Tino, has brent sent you a E-manual already? if your thinking of buying a unit we only have a couple left from this batch, if i need to hold one for you please let me know. kindest regards john routley Yep, received the manual o.k. Thanks, both! and thanks very much for the offer, John, and am indeed very tempted, but have to wait till Santaclaus (or the bonus-man, IF he comes along - as I work for a bank.....) passes by.... So I'll consider a next batch. Operational question though: the usefullness of your new toy is extra highlighted by the current debate about the bad batches of AI cells that have surfaced around the globe. You guys have done a lot of testing with known & popular cells, to determine & establish your linearity graphs. Based on that experience, is there a timelimit you suggest to leave the cells in the pot before you can sort of decide with a reasonable (and I stress reasonable, because it will never be 100%) level of trust that they are o.k.? The manual is not clear on that (unless I overlooked). I.e. do you typically leave them in an hour, or a night, or 24 hours? What based on your experience is "common wisdom"...? ciao, Tino.
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22nd November 2007, 20:44	#34 (permalink)
narked at 90 In my own little world Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: middlands uk Posts: 1,010	Re: The Cell Checker Hi Tino, a liniarity test only takes a couple of minutes, but i tend to keep my cells at high out put for 10mins to make sure they read high and stay there, keeping cells at 2bar over night is just a good way to kill your cells off early. we now have software we send out with the cell checkers to make the logging and plotting the results and gives a pass or fail for the cells and a % of how far out of spec they are. kind regards john routley __________________ CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *WWW.GRPSERVICES.COM*
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23rd November 2007, 11:46	#35 (permalink)
Tino de Rijk Old, maybe one day wise Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 329	Re: The Cell Checker Quote: (Originally Posted by narked at 90) Hi Tino, a liniarity test only takes a couple of minutes, but i tend to keep my cells at high out put for 10mins to make sure they read high and stay there, keeping cells at 2bar over night is just a good way to kill your cells off early. we now have software we send out with the cell checkers to make the logging and plotting the results and gives a pass or fail for the cells and a % of how far out of spec they are. kind regards john routley Agree with your approach, but would suggest to split it in two: - initial tests (for new cells, with as yet unknown quality); - repeat tests (for cells in use, for which you want to test if they're still o.k. and not approaching their current limit). What you describe above would fit the latter. However, as the AI cell saga shows, a new cell might need some extra scrutiny to see if it didn't came in with some hidden off-factory problems. Maybe a whole night at 2 bar is a bit over the top, but I would at least have it make a long "virtual" dive, i.e. a couple of hours at 1.5-1.6 bar or so, i.e. a bit above the actual operational high setpoint. Again: never a 100% guarantee, but will also not hurt the cell more than having it make such a dive in real life. My guess/assumption is that a factory fault has a good chance of showing uo in such a test. Is this b.s. of do you think this dual approach would make sense, John? Nice thing is you can do both with your checker! Ciao, Tino.
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