Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions??

***Beanie*** · 12th February 2007, 11:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

I'll answer with both Ignorance *and* Apathy:

(1): Dunno. (2): Don't care. It's my license and I'll act as a prudent mariner.

It's probably because even though they think it's the same environment, it's really not. "Busy Waters" and "Formal Traffic Lanes" are two different things. They might have one. Dunno. I do know what we have here though. Capt Ted, and myself, and others hold licenses as Officers in the US Merchant Marine. We have legal obligations to perform in a certain way. One of those obligations is prudence in the normal course of seamanship, and another is *strict* adherance with the Rules of the Road. Diving is layered on top of that work. It's not easy to be *safe* and *legal* all at once.

Dunno how they can do that free hang stuff with 20 people on a boat all doing their own thing either. How many RIB's can be out there chasing the scattered masses? If they carry 4 divers, then I can see it. I carry 6 and that's already too many to chase since entry and exit times are staggered.

Dave

English channel busy shipping lane seperation zone etc

Dive boats don't anchor in
12 or less divers on the boat
either all divers back up shot or all free deco under DSMB
Divers go in within a shore time frame (slack water) and run similar times so should end up drifting together and the boat follows the lot of them
of course diving in the shipping lanes is different

**Dave Sutton** · 12th February 2007, 15:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Again thanks for the all the information, and I certainly understand the points presented. However shit happens, so what will happen when someone accidentally detached from the upline and got drifted ? Of course, he will immediately put up a DSMB to indicate his (drifting) position. But what will the boat do in this situation ? .

Thats's what we have the RIB streamed to the side of the boat for. We'll chase down the wayward diver, but we don't want to chase a gaggle of them.

Dave

AD_ward9 · 12th February 2007, 16:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Thats's what we have the RIB streamed to the side of the boat for. We'll chase down the wayward diver, but we don't want to chase a gaggle of them.

Dave

You are right, no-one wants a gaggle. The trapeze keeps all the divers in one place. There is no difference to picking them up from a buoy that is anchored, except the boat can be even closer. Similarly for divers going into the water, they can go in within a couple of feet of the shot line when it is not the anchor.

Alex

**Dave Sutton** · 12th February 2007, 16:23

[quote=AD_ward9;95910]You are right, no-one wants a gaggle. The trapeze keeps all the divers in one place. There is no difference to picking them up from a buoy that is anchored, except the boat can be even closer. Similarly for divers going into the water, they can go in within a couple of feet of the shot line when it is not the anchor.Alex[/quote

I think that the main difference is the run-time scheduling differences. We do not jump our whole group at once, and they stage in and out on a staggered schedule. Basically, we anchor and it's then "pool's open" for the next two days. Guys dive and sleep and eat and sun as they see fit. There is merit to both systems, and I think what we ought to agree on is that we should use what is most appropriate to the conditions and the environment. And trust me, we're not going to run the boat for 2 days... we're anchoring (to the wreck).

Dave

***jradomski*** · 12th February 2007, 16:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

By good organisation, including people keeping to their allotted run times.

Alex

I have done dives using both methods and even though the deco is easier floating with the current, I prefer by far the NE USA method of wreck diving.. It allows people to get in and out at their own pace.. No one has to be rushed, and everyone can do their own thing and if for any reason one person decided to call things, the only person/team that is effected is the one calling it.

Some people don't mind long hangs other like keeping the total run time in the hour range.. At the cost and long boat runs to the doria (and the fact that it gets blown out quite often). I see no reason to change the method that has workedwell for many years..

Even on the shallower stuff I still prefer the tie in.. I take my time getting ready and do one long dive (for ne conditions) 1.5 to 2 hours instead of haveing to deal with getting ready twice (especially in late dummer when the air is above 90f and the water is still 40-50f) because of OC divers (its highly doubtful you'll ever fill a boat in the NE without a special trip with CCRs)...

With multiple boats tied into the wreck there are extra sets of eyes and help available... and if God forrbid, the boat has to untie (by coast guard request for a rescue), it leaves a tuna float in place and on the doria there would usually be another boat to help the decoing divers out..

I know personally I would feel alot better knowing that if the boat HAD to leave the is another well within range.. Being 100 miles from doc without a boat in place would be a stressful situation for many..

There are people that have done both the britanic and the doria, and everyone that I heard reports from said the Britanic was a much easier dive..

JS1scuba · 12th February 2007, 17:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

If you are anchored in, you cannot get out of the way.
Alex

With a good crew and a sharp Captain we can be off station in the time it takes to start the engines and flip open a Spyderco.

Keep in mind that day time operations are much different than laying on the wreck overnight.

On an layover after diving operations are done for the day all the down lines are pulled up, oxygen put away, etc. Then a big tuna ball , (polyform float for the rest of you) is put on the anchor line, sometimes 2 of them, a painter (trail line from main line to vessel) is then used to lay over. Slack is put out to take into consideration the changing seas. This may be adjusted throughout the night if conditions worsen. We do all of this with anchor rode not chain. Radar watch is done by revolving crew every 2 hours so no-one falls asleep at the watch. WHEN a vessel gets too close (6 -12 miles) a SECURITE CALL Is placed (pronounced SECURITAY) . Normally the other vessel will change its course and give wide berth.

Live boating and free float deco, shot lines, lazy shots, wasters, bungee jumps, free descents and free ascents just dont work on the Doria. There must be a reason every year only a small handful of boats ever get there.

While you may think we have no ****ing idea as to what we do on this wreck I must suggest that till you have walked the deck in our boots you just sit back and watch. Do you think we just go out there with our pizza and cold beer and sit there with our thumbs up our butts?

It's aways amusing to listen to Monday morning experts.

Cheers

***EBT*** · 12th February 2007, 18:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by JS1scuba)

Do you think we just go out there with our pizza and cold beer and sit there

NOW I get the appeal. Where do I sign up? NO anchovies on mine either.. eeew

**Dave Sutton** · 12th February 2007, 18:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by JS1scuba)

With a good crew and a sharp Captain we can be off station in the time it takes to start the engines and flip open a Spyderco. Do you think we just go out there with our pizza and cold beer and sit there with our thumbs up our butts?

All might note that we keep a Spyderco on a lanyard at the bow for just such use and a tuna ball in the basket.

But with respect to pizza... naah..... Explorer features a better sort cusine provided by it's resident 28 year old Redheaded Brazilian, who dishes out hot chow as well as sexy glances. We do aim to please...

Joel, I have a space open for the "Mates Trip" in July if you want to come.

Dave

JS1scuba · 12th February 2007, 19:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

All might note that we keep a Spyderco on a lanyard at the bow for just such use and a tuna ball in the basket.

But with respect to pizza... naah..... Explorer features a better sort cusine provided by it's resident 28 year old Redheaded Brazilian, who dishes out hot chow as well as sexy glances. We do aim to please...

Joel, I have a space open for the "Mates Trip" in July if you want to come.

Dave

Dave, -- i will check schedule -- i have a lot in June July with 3 weeks on the Monitor and on the Doria -- ..... as to food ..... i've yet to have a pizza on a Doria trip or for that matter anyother trip I have run. We only do top end chow.

So this is a "mating trip" ....... hmmmmm

Yes a knife is always near the bow. Though I like that scene in Master and Commander where they unroll the small axes for chopping the lines. And, the scene in Jaws where he takes the big knife and chops the line before Scheider gets taken into the sea. Now THAT's a KNIFE !

Cheers

JDS

Gobfish1 · 12th February 2007, 21:12

Andrea Doria-Life Magazine Divers

Dan Berg's Dive Wreck Valley Andrea Doria Shipwreck Diving Video - Google Video

Cape Cod Times: Divers risk all for a date with Andrea Doria (August 22, 1999)

CDNN :: Deadly Dive: Wreck of the Andrea Doria

Association of Underwater Explorers - Andrea Doria

Andrea Doria 2001 Dive Story

Map of Andrea Doria (1956) (wreck), Atlantic Ocean - World Atlas - MSN Encarta

Nitrox, Wreck, Trimix, Technical Diver

Andrea Doria Expedition 2002

Doria

New York Pizzeria - Fast, Casual, Italian Restaurant

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g107/tarasstupidmouth/Thumbsupbutts.jpg

12th February 2007, 11:35	#61 (permalink)
*Beanie* Gallery Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,311	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) I'll answer with both Ignorance and Apathy: (1): Dunno. (2): Don't care. It's my license and I'll act as a prudent mariner. It's probably because even though they think it's the same environment, it's really not. "Busy Waters" and "Formal Traffic Lanes" are two different things. They might have one. Dunno. I do know what we have here though. Capt Ted, and myself, and others hold licenses as Officers in the US Merchant Marine. We have legal obligations to perform in a certain way. One of those obligations is prudence in the normal course of seamanship, and another is strict adherance with the Rules of the Road. Diving is layered on top of that work. It's not easy to be safe and legal all at once. Dunno how they can do that free hang stuff with 20 people on a boat all doing their own thing either. How many RIB's can be out there chasing the scattered masses? If they carry 4 divers, then I can see it. I carry 6 and that's already too many to chase since entry and exit times are staggered. Dave English channel busy shipping lane seperation zone etc Dive boats don't anchor in 12 or less divers on the boat either all divers back up shot or all free deco under DSMB Divers go in within a shore time frame (slack water) and run similar times so should end up drifting together and the boat follows the lot of them of course diving in the shipping lanes is different __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk
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12th February 2007, 15:24	#62 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Again thanks for the all the information, and I certainly understand the points presented. However shit happens, so what will happen when someone accidentally detached from the upline and got drifted ? Of course, he will immediately put up a DSMB to indicate his (drifting) position. But what will the boat do in this situation ? . Thats's what we have the RIB streamed to the side of the boat for. We'll chase down the wayward diver, but we don't want to chase a gaggle of them. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
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12th February 2007, 16:19	#63 (permalink)
AD_ward9 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,011	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Thats's what we have the RIB streamed to the side of the boat for. We'll chase down the wayward diver, but we don't want to chase a gaggle of them. Dave You are right, no-one wants a gaggle. The trapeze keeps all the divers in one place. There is no difference to picking them up from a buoy that is anchored, except the boat can be even closer. Similarly for divers going into the water, they can go in within a couple of feet of the shot line when it is not the anchor. Alex
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12th February 2007, 16:23	#64 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? [quote=AD_ward9;95910]You are right, no-one wants a gaggle. The trapeze keeps all the divers in one place. There is no difference to picking them up from a buoy that is anchored, except the boat can be even closer. Similarly for divers going into the water, they can go in within a couple of feet of the shot line when it is not the anchor.Alex[/quote I think that the main difference is the run-time scheduling differences. We do not jump our whole group at once, and they stage in and out on a staggered schedule. Basically, we anchor and it's then "pool's open" for the next two days. Guys dive and sleep and eat and sun as they see fit. There is merit to both systems, and I think what we ought to agree on is that we should use what is most appropriate to the conditions and the environment. And trust me, we're not going to run the boat for 2 days... we're anchoring (to the wreck). Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
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12th February 2007, 16:42	#65 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) By good organisation, including people keeping to their allotted run times. Alex I have done dives using both methods and even though the deco is easier floating with the current, I prefer by far the NE USA method of wreck diving.. It allows people to get in and out at their own pace.. No one has to be rushed, and everyone can do their own thing and if for any reason one person decided to call things, the only person/team that is effected is the one calling it. Some people don't mind long hangs other like keeping the total run time in the hour range.. At the cost and long boat runs to the doria (and the fact that it gets blown out quite often). I see no reason to change the method that has workedwell for many years.. Even on the shallower stuff I still prefer the tie in.. I take my time getting ready and do one long dive (for ne conditions) 1.5 to 2 hours instead of haveing to deal with getting ready twice (especially in late dummer when the air is above 90f and the water is still 40-50f) because of OC divers (its highly doubtful you'll ever fill a boat in the NE without a special trip with CCRs)... With multiple boats tied into the wreck there are extra sets of eyes and help available... and if God forrbid, the boat has to untie (by coast guard request for a rescue), it leaves a tuna float in place and on the doria there would usually be another boat to help the decoing divers out.. I know personally I would feel alot better knowing that if the boat HAD to leave the is another well within range.. Being 100 miles from doc without a boat in place would be a stressful situation for many.. There are people that have done both the britanic and the doria, and everyone that I heard reports from said the Britanic was a much easier dive.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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12th February 2007, 17:02	#66 (permalink)
JS1scuba RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ - USA Posts: 594	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) If you are anchored in, you cannot get out of the way. Alex With a good crew and a sharp Captain we can be off station in the time it takes to start the engines and flip open a Spyderco. Keep in mind that day time operations are much different than laying on the wreck overnight. On an layover after diving operations are done for the day all the down lines are pulled up, oxygen put away, etc. Then a big tuna ball , (polyform float for the rest of you) is put on the anchor line, sometimes 2 of them, a painter (trail line from main line to vessel) is then used to lay over. Slack is put out to take into consideration the changing seas. This may be adjusted throughout the night if conditions worsen. We do all of this with anchor rode not chain. Radar watch is done by revolving crew every 2 hours so no-one falls asleep at the watch. WHEN a vessel gets too close (6 -12 miles) a SECURITE CALL Is placed (pronounced SECURITAY) . Normally the other vessel will change its course and give wide berth. Live boating and free float deco, shot lines, lazy shots, wasters, bungee jumps, free descents and free ascents just dont work on the Doria. There must be a reason every year only a small handful of boats ever get there. While you may think we have no ****ing idea as to what we do on this wreck I must suggest that till you have walked the deck in our boots you just sit back and watch. Do you think we just go out there with our pizza and cold beer and sit there with our thumbs up our butts? It's aways amusing to listen to Monday morning experts. Cheers __________________ Joel Silverstein, VP COO Tech Diving Limited a Division of Scuba Training and Technology Inc. http://www.nautilusdiveplanner.com
(Offline)

12th February 2007, 18:10	#67 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,105	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by JS1scuba) Do you think we just go out there with our pizza and cold beer and sit there NOW I get the appeal. Where do I sign up? NO anchovies on mine either.. eeew __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service
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12th February 2007, 18:42	#68 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by JS1scuba) With a good crew and a sharp Captain we can be off station in the time it takes to start the engines and flip open a Spyderco. Do you think we just go out there with our pizza and cold beer and sit there with our thumbs up our butts? All might note that we keep a Spyderco on a lanyard at the bow for just such use and a tuna ball in the basket. But with respect to pizza... naah..... Explorer features a better sort cusine provided by it's resident 28 year old Redheaded Brazilian, who dishes out hot chow as well as sexy glances. We do aim to please... Joel, I have a space open for the "Mates Trip" in July if you want to come. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
(Offline)

12th February 2007, 19:05	#69 (permalink)
JS1scuba RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ - USA Posts: 594	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) All might note that we keep a Spyderco on a lanyard at the bow for just such use and a tuna ball in the basket. But with respect to pizza... naah..... Explorer features a better sort cusine provided by it's resident 28 year old Redheaded Brazilian, who dishes out hot chow as well as sexy glances. We do aim to please... Joel, I have a space open for the "Mates Trip" in July if you want to come. Dave Dave, -- i will check schedule -- i have a lot in June July with 3 weeks on the Monitor and on the Doria -- ..... as to food ..... i've yet to have a pizza on a Doria trip or for that matter anyother trip I have run. We only do top end chow. So this is a "mating trip" ....... hmmmmm Yes a knife is always near the bow. Though I like that scene in Master and Commander where they unroll the small axes for chopping the lines. And, the scene in Jaws where he takes the big knife and chops the line before Scheider gets taken into the sea. Now THAT's a KNIFE ! Cheers JDS __________________ Joel Silverstein, VP COO Tech Diving Limited a Division of Scuba Training and Technology Inc. http://www.nautilusdiveplanner.com
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