Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions??

O.C.Diver · 12th February 2007, 00:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

I'm not interested in fixing what is not broken. What works works. And I'd NEVER drift thru the shipping lanes chasing 3 sets of divers all on deco.... just not gonna. No-way, no-how.

This is not to say that well trained teams cannot use this method, as it's proven to work also under the correct conditions. I just don't see that here.

Ditto!

Let me also say this, Hanging in a ripping current is not fun. Going to the Doria requires that you be prepared to deal with the currents on Deco and also on the bottom. Sometimes the current is actually worse on the wreck and it can take great effort just to stay on the wreck. Maybe it's just me, but I find pulling myself down an anchor line in a ripping current and fighting to stay on the wreck far more taxing than going up the anchor line with the current. If you aren't prepared to deal with the current on deco, you probably not ready to fight you way down and deal with the current on the wreck. If you have a good Jon line with Garvin clip, and proper technique to use them, dealing with a ripping current on deco is certainly doable and easier than the fight to go down the anchor line against the current. Going to the Doria also requires the maturity and experience to know when the conditions are beyond one's capacity to safely make the dive. If you don't have the maturity to thumb the dive when conditions exceed your capacity, you have no business going there.

Ted

**Dave Sutton** · 12th February 2007, 02:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver)

If you have a good Jon line with Garvin clip, and proper technique to use them, dealing with a ripping current on deco is certainly doable and easier than the fight to go down the anchor line against the current. Going to the Doria also requires the maturity and experience to know when the conditions are beyond one's capacity to safely make the dive. If you don't have the maturity to thumb the dive when conditions exceed your capacity, you have no business going there.

Yup. Even with the Garvin clip, *my* little old fingers are gonna grip that line like my life depends on it ('cause it might). This is one of the reasons I strip my gear down to the bare minimums too.... minimum profile drag. And the maturity thing is another great point. I'd much rather have a guy decide to enjoy the sun if it's too much for him than to need to call him into the cabin to explain why his judgement and mine are in conflict... less hurt feelings that way. Captains are always happy with conservative divers and conservative decisions. I respect a man a LOT more for *sitting* one out than for *toughing* one out.

For descent, I've actually considered a caribiner next to the Garvin clip on my jon line, as a safety to be snapped *around* the line instead of the Garvin to be clipped TO the line on descent in current. Not to hang against, but to just let slide freely down the line. HATE the concept of need to manage gear with two hands and possible loss of descent line as a result. Not good.... nightmare stuff in fact.

Dave

dive2dive2000 · 12th February 2007, 02:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

This is an interesting thread, and thanks for the educational discussion...

Out of curiousity...

The depth isn't an issue, but sounds like the logistic issues are the main challenges.

What are other interests in diving the Doria besides bragging right of having done it for people who are not living in North-East US to make the trek instead of going elsewhere to dive ?

Hi Phi,

I can only speak for me. I have family who immigrated to NY on her, I even have china from her given to me from my mother in-law(her name happens to be Italia). I also live and dive in the waters where she sank so for me it has been a dive that I have been wanting to make since my OW certification. Unfortunately I am finding the expense to be excessive so I am not sure if I will ever dive her. Diving the Doria means giving up a week of travel and I have not done that yet, but this might be the year I take the lock off the wallet

Not to mention I can book 3 separate overnight trips to other local wrecks that's almost 12 dives to 4 weather permitting.

I guess it will also depend on are you coming alone or with a group or just a buddy, if taking the time and expense what other dives/places are on the wish list which ranks the highest an which has the greatest chance of success. please feel free to pm if you want leads on local operators/hotels...

dive2dive2000 · 12th February 2007, 02:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by PeteS)

Strong currents..... 4 or 5 ships..... Is that all? Try the English Channel!

Drifting on a trapeze is nice deco. You just need to educate the boat operators.......

How do you move the Trapeze out of the way of a ship if it is free and drifting?

**Dave Sutton** · 12th February 2007, 02:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

How do you move the Trapeze out of the way of a ship if it is free and drifting?

You don't. You are, in point of fact and maritime law, a "Hazard to Navigation" and subject to the penalties associated thereto if you drive a ship out of the traffic lane to avoid you. You are the legally a "Vessel Restricted in her Ability to Maneuver" at that time, but it's a bad plan to be acting like a "Vessel Not Under Command" when you are not (see International Rules of the Road, General Definitions)

Also note Rule 10 in the International Rules: "A vessel of less than 20 meters or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power driven vessel following a traffic lane"...

This is bad stuff for Captains to be hauled into Admirality Court over. People loose their licenses for stuff like this. Perhaps the divers ought to let the running of the boat be left to the guy who sat for his Masters License... there is more to it than meets the eye. One of the things is to "Be Predictable". Drifting across the transit lanes is neglegent seamanship.

"Not on my watch" says Capt. Dave...

dive2dive2000 · 12th February 2007, 03:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

You don't. You are, in point of fact and maritime law, a "Hazard to Navigation" and subject to the penalties associated thereto if you drive a ship out of the traffic lane to avoid you. You are the legally a "Vessel Restricted in her Ability to Maneuver" at that time, but it's a bad plan to be acting like a "Vessel Not Under Command" when you are not (see International Rules of the Road, General Definitions)

Also note Rule 10 in the International Rules: "A vessel of less than 20 meters or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power driven vessel following a traffic lane"...

This is bad stuff for Captains to be hauled into Admirality Court over. People loose their licenses for stuff like this. Perhaps the divers ought to let the running of the boat be left to the guy who sat for his Masters License... there is more to it than meets the eye. One of the things is to "Be Predictable". Drifting across the transit lanes is neglegent seamanship.

"Not on my watch" says Capt. Dave...

Hi Dave,

I understand... but this seems to be *SOP* in the UK even in shipping lanes What am I missing how do they pull it off?

**Dave Sutton** · 12th February 2007, 03:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

Hi Dave,I understand... but this seems to be *SOP* in the UK even in shipping lanes What am I missing how do they pull it off?

I'll answer with both Ignorance *and* Apathy:

(1): Dunno. (2): Don't care. It's my license and I'll act as a prudent mariner.

It's probably because even though they think it's the same environment, it's really not. "Busy Waters" and "Formal Traffic Lanes" are two different things. They might have one. Dunno. I do know what we have here though. Capt Ted, and myself, and others hold licenses as Officers in the US Merchant Marine. We have legal obligations to perform in a certain way. One of those obligations is prudence in the normal course of seamanship, and another is *strict* adherance with the Rules of the Road. Diving is layered on top of that work. It's not easy to be *safe* and *legal* all at once.

Dunno how they can do that free hang stuff with 20 people on a boat all doing their own thing either. How many RIB's can be out there chasing the scattered masses? If they carry 4 divers, then I can see it. I carry 6 and that's already too many to chase since entry and exit times are staggered.

Dave

dive2dive2000 · 12th February 2007, 03:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

I'll answer with both Ignorance *and* Apathy:

(1): Dunno. (2): Don't care. It's my license and I'll act as a prudent mariner.

It's probably because even though they think it's the same environment, it's really not. "Busy Waters" and "Formal Traffic Lanes" are two different things. They might have one. Dunno. I do know what we have here though. Capt Ted, and myself, and others hold licenses as Officers in the US Merchant Marine. We have legal obligations to perform in a certain way. One of those obligations is prudence in the normal course of seamanship, and another is *strict* adherance with the Rules of the Road. Diving is layered on top of that work. It's not easy to be *safe* and *legal* all at once.

Dunno how they can do that free hang stuff with 20 people on a boat all doing their own thing either. How many RIB's can be out there chasing the scattered masses? If they carry 4 divers, then I can see it. I carry 6 and that's already too many to chase since entry and exit times are staggered.

Dave

I liked the unedited post LMFAO

I have talked about this type of diving and hopefully will get a chance to execute it this yr (south Jersey waters 4 -5 divers max & all have = run times)

decoweenie · 12th February 2007, 06:06

Again thanks for the all the information, and I certainly understand the points presented.

However shit happens, so what will happen when someone accidentally detached from the upline and got drifted ?

Of course, he will immediately put up a DSMB to indicate his (drifting) position. But what will the boat do in this situation ?

This reminds of the time when my Jon line broke during a ripping-current dive in South China Sea, and I had to complete the remain of my deco using my scooter since the boat had no chase boat.

AD_ward9 · 12th February 2007, 11:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

Hi Dave,

I understand... but this seems to be *SOP* in the UK even in shipping lanes What am I missing how do they pull it off?

By good organisation, including people keeping to their allotted run times.

Alex

12th February 2007, 00:44	#51 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 244	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) I'm not interested in fixing what is not broken. What works works. And I'd NEVER drift thru the shipping lanes chasing 3 sets of divers all on deco.... just not gonna. No-way, no-how. This is not to say that well trained teams cannot use this method, as it's proven to work also under the correct conditions. I just don't see that here. Ditto! Let me also say this, Hanging in a ripping current is not fun. Going to the Doria requires that you be prepared to deal with the currents on Deco and also on the bottom. Sometimes the current is actually worse on the wreck and it can take great effort just to stay on the wreck. Maybe it's just me, but I find pulling myself down an anchor line in a ripping current and fighting to stay on the wreck far more taxing than going up the anchor line with the current. If you aren't prepared to deal with the current on deco, you probably not ready to fight you way down and deal with the current on the wreck. If you have a good Jon line with Garvin clip, and proper technique to use them, dealing with a ripping current on deco is certainly doable and easier than the fight to go down the anchor line against the current. Going to the Doria also requires the maturity and experience to know when the conditions are beyond one's capacity to safely make the dive. If you don't have the maturity to thumb the dive when conditions exceed your capacity, you have no business going there. Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
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12th February 2007, 02:08	#52 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver) If you have a good Jon line with Garvin clip, and proper technique to use them, dealing with a ripping current on deco is certainly doable and easier than the fight to go down the anchor line against the current. Going to the Doria also requires the maturity and experience to know when the conditions are beyond one's capacity to safely make the dive. If you don't have the maturity to thumb the dive when conditions exceed your capacity, you have no business going there. Yup. Even with the Garvin clip, my little old fingers are gonna grip that line like my life depends on it ('cause it might). This is one of the reasons I strip my gear down to the bare minimums too.... minimum profile drag. And the maturity thing is another great point. I'd much rather have a guy decide to enjoy the sun if it's too much for him than to need to call him into the cabin to explain why his judgement and mine are in conflict... less hurt feelings that way. Captains are always happy with conservative divers and conservative decisions. I respect a man a LOT more for sitting one out than for toughing one out. For descent, I've actually considered a caribiner next to the Garvin clip on my jon line, as a safety to be snapped around the line instead of the Garvin to be clipped TO the line on descent in current. Not to hang against, but to just let slide freely down the line. HATE the concept of need to manage gear with two hands and possible loss of descent line as a result. Not good.... nightmare stuff in fact. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 12th February 2007 at 02:17.
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12th February 2007, 02:13	#53 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 796	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) This is an interesting thread, and thanks for the educational discussion... Out of curiousity... The depth isn't an issue, but sounds like the logistic issues are the main challenges. What are other interests in diving the Doria besides bragging right of having done it for people who are not living in North-East US to make the trek instead of going elsewhere to dive ? Hi Phi, I can only speak for me. I have family who immigrated to NY on her, I even have china from her given to me from my mother in-law(her name happens to be Italia). I also live and dive in the waters where she sank so for me it has been a dive that I have been wanting to make since my OW certification. Unfortunately I am finding the expense to be excessive so I am not sure if I will ever dive her. Diving the Doria means giving up a week of travel and I have not done that yet, but this might be the year I take the lock off the wallet Not to mention I can book 3 separate overnight trips to other local wrecks that's almost 12 dives to 4 weather permitting. I guess it will also depend on are you coming alone or with a group or just a buddy, if taking the time and expense what other dives/places are on the wish list which ranks the highest an which has the greatest chance of success. please feel free to pm if you want leads on local operators/hotels... __________________ Safe Diving, Martin Last edited by dive2dive2000 : 12th February 2007 at 02:27.
(Online)

12th February 2007, 02:34	#54 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 796	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by PeteS) Strong currents..... 4 or 5 ships..... Is that all? Try the English Channel! Drifting on a trapeze is nice deco. You just need to educate the boat operators....... How do you move the Trapeze out of the way of a ship if it is free and drifting? __________________ Safe Diving, Martin
(Online)

12th February 2007, 02:43	#55 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) How do you move the Trapeze out of the way of a ship if it is free and drifting? You don't. You are, in point of fact and maritime law, a "Hazard to Navigation" and subject to the penalties associated thereto if you drive a ship out of the traffic lane to avoid you. You are the legally a "Vessel Restricted in her Ability to Maneuver" at that time, but it's a bad plan to be acting like a "Vessel Not Under Command" when you are not (see International Rules of the Road, General Definitions) Also note Rule 10 in the International Rules: "A vessel of less than 20 meters or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power driven vessel following a traffic lane"... This is bad stuff for Captains to be hauled into Admirality Court over. People loose their licenses for stuff like this. Perhaps the divers ought to let the running of the boat be left to the guy who sat for his Masters License... there is more to it than meets the eye. One of the things is to "Be Predictable". Drifting across the transit lanes is neglegent seamanship. "Not on my watch" says Capt. Dave... __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 12th February 2007 at 03:03.
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12th February 2007, 03:14	#56 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 796	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) You don't. You are, in point of fact and maritime law, a "Hazard to Navigation" and subject to the penalties associated thereto if you drive a ship out of the traffic lane to avoid you. You are the legally a "Vessel Restricted in her Ability to Maneuver" at that time, but it's a bad plan to be acting like a "Vessel Not Under Command" when you are not (see International Rules of the Road, General Definitions) Also note Rule 10 in the International Rules: "A vessel of less than 20 meters or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power driven vessel following a traffic lane"... This is bad stuff for Captains to be hauled into Admirality Court over. People loose their licenses for stuff like this. Perhaps the divers ought to let the running of the boat be left to the guy who sat for his Masters License... there is more to it than meets the eye. One of the things is to "Be Predictable". Drifting across the transit lanes is neglegent seamanship. "Not on my watch" says Capt. Dave... Hi Dave, I understand... but this seems to be SOP in the UK even in shipping lanes What am I missing how do they pull it off? __________________ Safe Diving, Martin
(Online)

12th February 2007, 03:33	#57 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) Hi Dave,I understand... but this seems to be SOP in the UK even in shipping lanes What am I missing how do they pull it off? I'll answer with both Ignorance and Apathy: (1): Dunno. (2): Don't care. It's my license and I'll act as a prudent mariner. It's probably because even though they think it's the same environment, it's really not. "Busy Waters" and "Formal Traffic Lanes" are two different things. They might have one. Dunno. I do know what we have here though. Capt Ted, and myself, and others hold licenses as Officers in the US Merchant Marine. We have legal obligations to perform in a certain way. One of those obligations is prudence in the normal course of seamanship, and another is strict adherance with the Rules of the Road. Diving is layered on top of that work. It's not easy to be safe and legal all at once. Dunno how they can do that free hang stuff with 20 people on a boat all doing their own thing either. How many RIB's can be out there chasing the scattered masses? If they carry 4 divers, then I can see it. I carry 6 and that's already too many to chase since entry and exit times are staggered. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 12th February 2007 at 03:35.
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12th February 2007, 03:41	#58 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 796	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) I'll answer with both Ignorance and Apathy: (1): Dunno. (2): Don't care. It's my license and I'll act as a prudent mariner. It's probably because even though they think it's the same environment, it's really not. "Busy Waters" and "Formal Traffic Lanes" are two different things. They might have one. Dunno. I do know what we have here though. Capt Ted, and myself, and others hold licenses as Officers in the US Merchant Marine. We have legal obligations to perform in a certain way. One of those obligations is prudence in the normal course of seamanship, and another is strict adherance with the Rules of the Road. Diving is layered on top of that work. It's not easy to be safe and legal all at once. Dunno how they can do that free hang stuff with 20 people on a boat all doing their own thing either. How many RIB's can be out there chasing the scattered masses? If they carry 4 divers, then I can see it. I carry 6 and that's already too many to chase since entry and exit times are staggered. Dave I liked the unedited post LMFAO I have talked about this type of diving and hopefully will get a chance to execute it this yr (south Jersey waters 4 -5 divers max & all have = run times) __________________ Safe Diving, Martin
(Online)

12th February 2007, 06:06	#59 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Again thanks for the all the information, and I certainly understand the points presented. However shit happens, so what will happen when someone accidentally detached from the upline and got drifted ? Of course, he will immediately put up a DSMB to indicate his (drifting) position. But what will the boat do in this situation ? This reminds of the time when my Jon line broke during a ripping-current dive in South China Sea, and I had to complete the remain of my deco using my scooter since the boat had no chase boat. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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12th February 2007, 11:12	#60 (permalink)
AD_ward9 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,011	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) Hi Dave, I understand... but this seems to be SOP in the UK even in shipping lanes What am I missing how do they pull it off? By good organisation, including people keeping to their allotted run times. Alex
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