Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions??

decoweenie · 11th February 2007, 07:06

This is an interesting thread, and thanks for the educational discussion...

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

Did I mention the amount of time and money you will invest for a dive that has about a 70% chance of getting blown out.

Out of curiousity...

The depth isn't an issue, but sounds like the logistic issues are the main challenges.

What are other interests in diving the Doria besides bragging right of having done it for people who are not living in North-East US to make the trek instead of going elsewhere to dive ?

PeteS · 11th February 2007, 08:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver)

The reason boats don't do drifting Deco on the Doria has to do with the international shipping lanes that the Doria is right next to. The strong currents there can carry a drifting Deco station or dive boat across the lanes of the shipping channel in under 2 hours or worse down one of these lanes. This is a major shipping lane. It is not uncommon to have 4 or 5 ships per hour going in each direction. The logistical nightmare of potentially running interference between a floating Deco station and 600' freighters in pea soup fog is void of any common sense. When I was 2nd captain on Doria trips we explained to customers that we had to cross the shipping lanes to get to the Doria from Montauk. A Northerly current would carry a drifting diver back across these same lanes. Do drift Deco at your own peril!

Strong currents..... 4 or 5 ships..... Is that all? Try the English Channel!

Drifting on a trapeze is nice deco. You just need to educate the boat operators.......

**Dave Sutton** · 11th February 2007, 11:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

As I said, some operators are much better than others. The Explorer is probably the best one that does the Doria. Views anyone? The Seeker has a chase boat and is also much better than its primary competitor (not the Explorer).

Uhhh.... the Seeker is bankrupt in the hands of a new owner and has been sitting on blocks in a boatyard for two years.......

Anytime you want to liveboat for three days offshore, feel free to come and run the boat. Bring your Masters Licence with you...

Dave Sutton

diverklondike · 11th February 2007, 11:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by PeteS)

Strong currents..... 4 or 5 ships..... Is that all? Try the English Channel!

Drifting on a trapeze is nice deco. You just need to educate the boat operators.......

Equally important is to train the divers... Parts of Florida is the only area I am aware of where this is done on a regular basis....

Dive Safe..

Mark

O.C.Diver · 11th February 2007, 12:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

If you are anchored in, you cannot get out of the way.

I cannot think of a single big British dive in a busy shipping lane that anchored the wreck. HMS Dasher is smack underneath a car ferry lane that goes every 30 mins (thanks, to Cal Mac for a reroute for the dive), and the middle of the main shipping lane right up the Clyde. Dives in the Channel are much busier than the Doria. The group that did the Brittanic were in a harbour lane, vastly more busy than the Doria. In none of these dives did the divers think of anchoring in, so the passing tanker could "sort those chaps, good and proper".

If you think a ship cannot hit a fixed object, you need more time on ships. Or come to Scotland: we have 10,000 wrecks around the coast, a great many of which are ships that had a go at passing through rock which was above the water line. Ships lose power, steering, people sleep, or are drunk, kit fails. A nuclear sub was even rammed head on once while at anchor sitting beside a quay by a boat leaving, and the video of the skipper watching TV on the bridge with his back to the bow, made for interesting questions. Anchoring into a solid object in a shipping lane does not sound a safe thing to do, just IMHO.

Alex

One last time. The Doria is next to (not in) a major shipping lane 100 miles off shore. This is not near coastal. The freighters out there follow the rule of right of weight.The Coast Guard is not out there playing trafic cop! If you are small and moving on their radar (they assume a fishing vessel) in the fog they assume you will get out of their way. When anchored on the Doria we post a radar watch. If a vessel is coming toward us we have time to respond.

If the Doria were located In the shipping lane I would be more receptive to your approach. It's Not, and I see no point in making surface logistics more complicated. I look at it like this: If I need to walk down an interstate hiway, I'm going to do it on the shoulder of the road. It doesn't make sense to me to walk down the lane of the hiway hoping the trucks will steer around me. The shoulder isn't as smooth but it's a lot safer.

Ted

AD_ward9 · 11th February 2007, 13:44

Ted, you seem to be saying the same thing as in my post, namely that traffic over the Doria is vastly less than dives we do around Europe, where a trapeze is fine.

A moving boat can get out of the way of a big ship much faster than one anchored.

The purpose of the surface logistics is to ensure no-one is lost, and people do not deco in a current.

Dave: you are right, on the Seeker I should have put it in the past tense. When it was running, it appeared to be the better of the two main choices.

Thanks for the offer of a boat. Bringing Masters certs is not a problem. We know some really good trawler skippers

Any fix for the visa problem?

Cheers

Alex

Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver)

One last time. The Doria is next to (not in) a major shipping lane 100 miles off shore. This is not near coastal. The freighters out there follow the rule of right of weight.The Coast Guard is not out there playing trafic cop! If you are small and moving on their radar (they assume a fishing vessel) in the fog they assume you will get out of their way. When anchored on the Doria we post a radar watch. If a vessel is coming toward us we have time to respond.

If the Doria were located In the shipping lane I would be more receptive to your approach. It's Not, and I see no point in making surface logistics more complicated. I look at it like this: If I need to walk down an interstate hiway, I'm going to do it on the shoulder of the road. It doesn't make sense to me to walk down the lane of the hiway hoping the trucks will steer around me. The shoulder isn't as smooth but it's a lot safer.

Ted

jptaylor9 · 11th February 2007, 13:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Ted, you seem to be saying the same thing as in my post, namely that traffic over the Doria is vastly less than dives we do around Europe, where a trapeze is fine.

A moving boat can get out of the way of a big ship much faster than one anchored.

I post here with some trepidation! I drift deco using deco station & lazy shots etc... However, a wreck like the Murree in the English channel is between the channel separation lanes & when i last did it we had to deco on the shot line, as the boat didn't want us drifting into the separation lanes. Big ships, moving very fast!!!

So maybe, not so different.

heyydude · 11th February 2007, 18:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

This is an interesting thread, and thanks for the educational discussion...

Out of curiousity...

The depth isn't an issue, but sounds like the logistic issues are the main challenges.

What are other interests in diving the Doria besides bragging right of having done it for people who are not living in North-East US to make the trek instead of going elsewhere to dive ?

Phi,

For my money - the Salem Express was one of the gnarlyest (surfer-speak warning) dives I've ever done. Not deep, but hellaciously rough water. That's off Hurghada, in your neck of the woods, (sorta). Leon took me and McKenny on some vicious dives in the great NW many years ago - current ripping like it was going out of style. Me and Leon ran a Jon line around the biggest rock we could find, and he held on to one end, while I held on to the other - we were blowing in the water column like leaves on an autumn day...

The Doria may be cool (never been on it) but I'm sure it isn't the most difficult of wreck dives. Christina Young is probably the most experienced Mark 15 diver on the Doria (you should see her house, it's full of Doria knick-knacks) - and she told me that the submarine (can't remember which one, but the one that Chatterton nearly died in) was a harder wreck.

The other thing about the Salem Express that got me was the emotional side of it - seeing all those baby carriages in the hold made you really stop and think about what happened when that one went down...

Later,

Kevin.

O.C.Diver · 11th February 2007, 19:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Ted, you seem to be saying the same thing as in my post, namely that traffic over the Doria is vastly less than dives we do around Europe, where a trapeze is fine.

A moving boat can get out of the way of a big ship much faster than one anchored.

The purpose of the surface logistics is to ensure no-one is lost, and people do not deco in a current.

The object is to keep the decompressing divers out of other ships path. Please explain to me how you will move your trapeze with divers hanging between 20' and 50' out of the way of another ship. You work under the assumption that every ship coming toward your drifting station has the ability to change course and will do so in time.

In the 2,000+ days of dive operation collectively performed by numerous different boats over the last 50 years, I do not believe there has been a single incident of a vessel transiting the area in the lanes veering off course and putting a dive vessel anchored on the Doria in jeopardy. There have been a few incidents of commercial fishing vessel fishing the area coming to close, but this was usually at night. If you can point me to a documented case of a vessel being chased off a Doria mooring by a transiting freighter etc., I will happily stand corrected. It is inconceivable to most any dive boat captain with a few Doria trips to think that 3,000+ drifting dive operations could have been performed on the Doria in the last 50 years without incident in the shipping lanes.

Alex, you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this. I would rather take my chances hanging in a 3 knot current where my survival is in my control. You would rather tempt fate and hope everyone else will yield to your dive boat. I wish you all the best of luck.......I fear sooner or later you will need it!

Ted

**Dave Sutton** · 11th February 2007, 22:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver)

It is inconceivable to most any dive boat captain with a few Doria trips to think that 3,000+ drifting dive operations could have been performed on the Doria in the last 50 years without incident in the shipping lanes.

What Ted Says..... in spades.

Ted, as one boat Captain to another: How many moored diving days do you think have been made without incident between, say Cape May and Block Island since wreck diving began here? Half a million? I just dunno, but it's in that order of numbers. As someone who is solely resonsible for the safety of my divers, I'm not interested in fixing what is not broken. What works works. And I'd NEVER drift thru the shipping lanes chasing 3 sets of divers all on deco.... just not gonna. No-way, no-how.

This is not to say that well trained teams cannot use this method, as it's proven to work also under the correct conditions. I just don't see that here.

Dave

11th February 2007, 07:06	#41 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? This is an interesting thread, and thanks for the educational discussion... Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) Did I mention the amount of time and money you will invest for a dive that has about a 70% chance of getting blown out. Out of curiousity... The depth isn't an issue, but sounds like the logistic issues are the main challenges. What are other interests in diving the Doria besides bragging right of having done it for people who are not living in North-East US to make the trek instead of going elsewhere to dive ? __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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11th February 2007, 08:58	#42 (permalink)
PeteS Consent Issued! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 533	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver) The reason boats don't do drifting Deco on the Doria has to do with the international shipping lanes that the Doria is right next to. The strong currents there can carry a drifting Deco station or dive boat across the lanes of the shipping channel in under 2 hours or worse down one of these lanes. This is a major shipping lane. It is not uncommon to have 4 or 5 ships per hour going in each direction. The logistical nightmare of potentially running interference between a floating Deco station and 600' freighters in pea soup fog is void of any common sense. When I was 2nd captain on Doria trips we explained to customers that we had to cross the shipping lanes to get to the Doria from Montauk. A Northerly current would carry a drifting diver back across these same lanes. Do drift Deco at your own peril! Strong currents..... 4 or 5 ships..... Is that all? Try the English Channel! Drifting on a trapeze is nice deco. You just need to educate the boat operators....... __________________ Pete S. http://www.steggle.co.nz Every silver lining has a cloud
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11th February 2007, 11:45	#43 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,672	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) As I said, some operators are much better than others. The Explorer is probably the best one that does the Doria. Views anyone? The Seeker has a chase boat and is also much better than its primary competitor (not the Explorer). Uhhh.... the Seeker is bankrupt in the hands of a new owner and has been sitting on blocks in a boatyard for two years....... Anytime you want to liveboat for three days offshore, feel free to come and run the boat. Bring your Masters Licence with you... Dave Sutton __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com
(Online)

11th February 2007, 11:58	#44 (permalink)
diverklondike Just one of the Peasants Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Delaware, USA Posts: 1,613	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by PeteS) Strong currents..... 4 or 5 ships..... Is that all? Try the English Channel! Drifting on a trapeze is nice deco. You just need to educate the boat operators....... Equally important is to train the divers... Parts of Florida is the only area I am aware of where this is done on a regular basis.... Dive Safe.. Mark
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11th February 2007, 12:18	#45 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 221	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) If you are anchored in, you cannot get out of the way. I cannot think of a single big British dive in a busy shipping lane that anchored the wreck. HMS Dasher is smack underneath a car ferry lane that goes every 30 mins (thanks, to Cal Mac for a reroute for the dive), and the middle of the main shipping lane right up the Clyde. Dives in the Channel are much busier than the Doria. The group that did the Brittanic were in a harbour lane, vastly more busy than the Doria. In none of these dives did the divers think of anchoring in, so the passing tanker could "sort those chaps, good and proper". If you think a ship cannot hit a fixed object, you need more time on ships. Or come to Scotland: we have 10,000 wrecks around the coast, a great many of which are ships that had a go at passing through rock which was above the water line. Ships lose power, steering, people sleep, or are drunk, kit fails. A nuclear sub was even rammed head on once while at anchor sitting beside a quay by a boat leaving, and the video of the skipper watching TV on the bridge with his back to the bow, made for interesting questions. Anchoring into a solid object in a shipping lane does not sound a safe thing to do, just IMHO. Alex One last time. The Doria is next to (not in) a major shipping lane 100 miles off shore. This is not near coastal. The freighters out there follow the rule of right of weight.The Coast Guard is not out there playing trafic cop! If you are small and moving on their radar (they assume a fishing vessel) in the fog they assume you will get out of their way. When anchored on the Doria we post a radar watch. If a vessel is coming toward us we have time to respond. If the Doria were located In the shipping lane I would be more receptive to your approach. It's Not, and I see no point in making surface logistics more complicated. I look at it like this: If I need to walk down an interstate hiway, I'm going to do it on the shoulder of the road. It doesn't make sense to me to walk down the lane of the hiway hoping the trucks will steer around me. The shoulder isn't as smooth but it's a lot safer. Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
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11th February 2007, 13:44	#46 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,864	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Ted, you seem to be saying the same thing as in my post, namely that traffic over the Doria is vastly less than dives we do around Europe, where a trapeze is fine. A moving boat can get out of the way of a big ship much faster than one anchored. The purpose of the surface logistics is to ensure no-one is lost, and people do not deco in a current. Dave: you are right, on the Seeker I should have put it in the past tense. When it was running, it appeared to be the better of the two main choices. Thanks for the offer of a boat. Bringing Masters certs is not a problem. We know some really good trawler skippers Any fix for the visa problem? Cheers Alex Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver) One last time. The Doria is next to (not in) a major shipping lane 100 miles off shore. This is not near coastal. The freighters out there follow the rule of right of weight.The Coast Guard is not out there playing trafic cop! If you are small and moving on their radar (they assume a fishing vessel) in the fog they assume you will get out of their way. When anchored on the Doria we post a radar watch. If a vessel is coming toward us we have time to respond. If the Doria were located In the shipping lane I would be more receptive to your approach. It's Not, and I see no point in making surface logistics more complicated. I look at it like this: If I need to walk down an interstate hiway, I'm going to do it on the shoulder of the road. It doesn't make sense to me to walk down the lane of the hiway hoping the trucks will steer around me. The shoulder isn't as smooth but it's a lot safer. Ted
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11th February 2007, 13:51	#47 (permalink)
jptaylor9 Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 318	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Ted, you seem to be saying the same thing as in my post, namely that traffic over the Doria is vastly less than dives we do around Europe, where a trapeze is fine. A moving boat can get out of the way of a big ship much faster than one anchored. I post here with some trepidation! I drift deco using deco station & lazy shots etc... However, a wreck like the Murree in the English channel is between the channel separation lanes & when i last did it we had to deco on the shot line, as the boat didn't want us drifting into the separation lanes. Big ships, moving very fast!!! So maybe, not so different. Last edited by jptaylor9 : 12th February 2007 at 13:26.
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11th February 2007, 18:25	#48 (permalink)
heyydude King of the Geeks Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Optima Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: May 2005 Location: Addison, Pennsylvania Posts: 358	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) This is an interesting thread, and thanks for the educational discussion... Out of curiousity... The depth isn't an issue, but sounds like the logistic issues are the main challenges. What are other interests in diving the Doria besides bragging right of having done it for people who are not living in North-East US to make the trek instead of going elsewhere to dive ? Phi, For my money - the Salem Express was one of the gnarlyest (surfer-speak warning) dives I've ever done. Not deep, but hellaciously rough water. That's off Hurghada, in your neck of the woods, (sorta). Leon took me and McKenny on some vicious dives in the great NW many years ago - current ripping like it was going out of style. Me and Leon ran a Jon line around the biggest rock we could find, and he held on to one end, while I held on to the other - we were blowing in the water column like leaves on an autumn day... The Doria may be cool (never been on it) but I'm sure it isn't the most difficult of wreck dives. Christina Young is probably the most experienced Mark 15 diver on the Doria (you should see her house, it's full of Doria knick-knacks) - and she told me that the submarine (can't remember which one, but the one that Chatterton nearly died in) was a harder wreck. The other thing about the Salem Express that got me was the emotional side of it - seeing all those baby carriages in the hold made you really stop and think about what happened when that one went down... Later, Kevin.
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11th February 2007, 19:08	#49 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 221	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Ted, you seem to be saying the same thing as in my post, namely that traffic over the Doria is vastly less than dives we do around Europe, where a trapeze is fine. A moving boat can get out of the way of a big ship much faster than one anchored. The purpose of the surface logistics is to ensure no-one is lost, and people do not deco in a current. The object is to keep the decompressing divers out of other ships path. Please explain to me how you will move your trapeze with divers hanging between 20' and 50' out of the way of another ship. You work under the assumption that every ship coming toward your drifting station has the ability to change course and will do so in time. In the 2,000+ days of dive operation collectively performed by numerous different boats over the last 50 years, I do not believe there has been a single incident of a vessel transiting the area in the lanes veering off course and putting a dive vessel anchored on the Doria in jeopardy. There have been a few incidents of commercial fishing vessel fishing the area coming to close, but this was usually at night. If you can point me to a documented case of a vessel being chased off a Doria mooring by a transiting freighter etc., I will happily stand corrected. It is inconceivable to most any dive boat captain with a few Doria trips to think that 3,000+ drifting dive operations could have been performed on the Doria in the last 50 years without incident in the shipping lanes. Alex, you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this. I would rather take my chances hanging in a 3 knot current where my survival is in my control. You would rather tempt fate and hope everyone else will yield to your dive boat. I wish you all the best of luck.......I fear sooner or later you will need it! Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
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11th February 2007, 22:10	#50 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,672	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver) It is inconceivable to most any dive boat captain with a few Doria trips to think that 3,000+ drifting dive operations could have been performed on the Doria in the last 50 years without incident in the shipping lanes. What Ted Says..... in spades. Ted, as one boat Captain to another: How many moored diving days do you think have been made without incident between, say Cape May and Block Island since wreck diving began here? Half a million? I just dunno, but it's in that order of numbers. As someone who is solely resonsible for the safety of my divers, I'm not interested in fixing what is not broken. What works works. And I'd NEVER drift thru the shipping lanes chasing 3 sets of divers all on deco.... just not gonna. No-way, no-how. This is not to say that well trained teams cannot use this method, as it's proven to work also under the correct conditions. I just don't see that here. Dave __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com
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