Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions??

dive2dive2000 · 10th February 2007, 22:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

It was used for the dives on the Brittanic. That is in a very much busier shipping lane than the Doria.

Also, a boat anchored into the Doria in the fog is a hazard in itself: remember how the Doria sank!

Alex

Come on man smarten up. Your credibility is sinking fast by this statement alone.

**Dave Sutton** · 10th February 2007, 22:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Also, a boat anchored into the Doria in the fog is a hazard in itself: remember how the Doria sank!

Actually, it's not. It's in the safest possible place: The mandatory separation zone between the inbound and outbund lanes to New York. NO ships are in the zone. Now, the Repiblic? That's a different story.

It would be nice if the folks with little or no experience here would listen to the guys who are here diving these waters all the time. Lots to learn if ya'll would listen to those of us who actually run boats here. We don't screw around, we're careful, and we dive safely. This isn't Turkey, or the Med, or anyplace else. It's here... and since we live here, listen to us.

A diver doing a free hang under a SMB on the Doria is as good as a dead man. If he does not die after being "not" found, he'll be killed by the crew and Captain for *screwing up* after we find him for causing a Mate to need to chase him down on the open ocean in fogs and currents in a small RIB where that small boat is itself in a hazard condition. Endanger yourself, but don't endanger my mates... ;-)

Dave

diverklondike · 10th February 2007, 22:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

I will also expand what I meant when I referred to the boat operators as contributing to some of the accidents. There is a big difference in the way we handle offshore technical dives in Northern Europe compared to the NE USA: we do not anchor into wrecks. This means we do not waste 6 hours trying to anchor the Doria

and then send down two guys to heave the anchor closer to the wreck or fix a traveller line between the anchor chain and the wreck

or a second buoy line from the wreck to the surface, tied to the anchor.

Alex

Alex...

I agree that the approach is very different between the two sides of the pond. Each approach has it's own + -'s. Here are a couple other things that add to the differences not that they are right or wrong.

- Going to the Doria is a multi day trip that is in most cases a 10 hour run off shore. For most trips you are planning to make 3-5 dives depending on the duration if the conditions are perfect. If they are not you may be lucky to get one or two.

- Typically there are different "teams" that are on a given trip that have different comfort levels. Some may only have plans for a quick tour on the top of the wreck and others may be planning for a longer duration and trip inside.

- You add to this, multiple boats being on the wreck at one time... etc and matters are complicated further.

The net is that in the "Northeast US" with the mix of divers, skills and protocals a drift deco station is not practical. Now if it was with a tight group of experianced divers/operator that used this approach on a regular basis that might be a different thing.

It's unfortunate that the Doria holds the stigma that it does from it's sorted history. People have a tendancy to "get stupid" when it comes to diving this wreck due to the build up and effort that is required to get out there. In the long run it's better to have a fixed anchor line that someone can immedeatly turn around and come back up if they realize at some point they are over their head. (Let's not go spinning off on the "well should they be out there in the first place"... Hundreds of threads have been written on that one)

BTW... Let me know when your coming over to the states next. Hopefully before DEMA...

Dive Safe...

Mark

**Dave Sutton** · 11th February 2007, 00:44

What Mark said.... free drift deco here is not a viable option for the reasons he cites.

Deep setup on EXPLORER:

HEAVY clump weight (40 KG more or less) rigged to hang about 4 feet off the side, dangled from the ships boom rigged overboard. Weight at about 100 feet. Divers can literally jump in with the descent line in their hand and start descent immediately. Any gear problems, etc? They are on a reference line just at the side of the boat. Hang on! At 20 feet on the descent line we hang an 02 reg setup surface supplied from a J bottle of 02. This is a 4 hour 02 supply for 2 divers, just for emergencies.

At the descent weight, an alu 80 of mix for any divers having a problem on ascent, as well as a strobe and a crossover line to the mooring line.

On the bottom of the mooring (at the wreck), another strobe and another mix bottle for emergency use.

Trailing from the transom, a 50 meter floating tag-line with an orange bouy at the end for the diver who lets go of the descent line and is swept aft by the current.

Tied to the other side of EXPLORER is a RIB ready to go, with full open seas survival gear, radar reflector so we can find it later, waterproof VHF radio, and all set to go to the aid of a distressed diver. Sending a mate out in the RIB on the high seas 100+ miles offshore in fog and current is *not* something we take lightly. We hate it, it fact.... but we are prepared to do it.

We may dive differently than you do, but we're not stupid. We don't take chances, and we don't make mistakes. This is a deadly serious game. Another reason we don't shot-line deep is so we can place the tie-in at the highest point of relief on the wreck. Shot lines just bounce down to the bottom.

Dave

O.C.Diver · 11th February 2007, 01:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

It was used for the dives on the Brittanic. That is in a very much busier shipping lane than the Doria.

Also, a boat anchored into the Doria in the fog is a hazard in itself: remember how the Doria sank!

Alex

Last time I checked the Doria sank as the result of 2 vessels under way, making way in the same shipping lane going toward each other. This is pretty much the same as what you are suggesting with your drifting Deco scenario. Anchored on the Doria makes the dive boat a fixed non moving radar target anchored out of the shipping lane. I am at a loss to understand why you would choose to play "chicken" with 600' freighters traveling at 20+ knots as opposed to staying out of their way.

Ted

dive2dive2000 · 11th February 2007, 03:39

On one side of the pond we have "Genesis" on the other side we have "Adward_9" and who said "we differ so much"

JOHNU · 11th February 2007, 04:16

Thanks everyone I appreciate your wreck suggestions and differing opinions on how to dive the Doria.

Safe diving

John

AD_ward9 · 11th February 2007, 06:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver)

Last time I checked the Doria sank as the result of 2 vessels under way, making way in the same shipping lane going toward each other. This is pretty much the same as what you are suggesting with your drifting Deco scenario. Anchored on the Doria makes the dive boat a fixed non moving radar target anchored out of the shipping lane. I am at a loss to understand why you would choose to play "chicken" with 600' freighters traveling at 20+ knots as opposed to staying out of their way.

Ted

If you are anchored in, you cannot get out of the way.

I cannot think of a single big British dive in a busy shipping lane that anchored the wreck. HMS Dasher is smack underneath a car ferry lane that goes every 30 mins (thanks, to Cal Mac for a reroute for the dive), and the middle of the main shipping lane right up the Clyde. Dives in the Channel are much busier than the Doria. The group that did the Brittanic were in a harbour lane, vastly more busy than the Doria. In none of these dives did the divers think of anchoring in, so the passing tanker could "sort those chaps, good and proper".

If you think a ship cannot hit a fixed object, you need more time on ships. Or come to Scotland: we have 10,000 wrecks around the coast, a great many of which are ships that had a go at passing through rock which was above the water line. Ships lose power, steering, people sleep, or are drunk, kit fails. A nuclear sub was even rammed head on once while at anchor sitting beside a quay by a boat leaving, and the video of the skipper watching TV on the bridge with his back to the bow, made for interesting questions. Anchoring into a solid object in a shipping lane does not sound a safe thing to do, just IMHO.

Alex

AD_ward9 · 11th February 2007, 06:13

Dave,

The most experienced competition to the Explorer is exactly as I described: no chase boat, no strobes, no gas in the water, no-one on standby, not even the gas on deck supplied at astonishing cost was anywhere near what it said, and it took 6 hours to anchor a huge wreck! Air solos on first penetration still allowed. We went over there to check out why there were so many accidents before bringing over two groups of paying customers, saw the score, and decided to take customers to Jutland instead: safer, rarer.

As I said, some operators are much better than others. The Explorer is probably the best one that does the Doria. Views anyone? The Seeker has a chase boat and is also much better than its primary competitor (not the Explorer).

We differ on where shot lines should go, but that is another debate.

DiverKlondike may have hit the nail on the head: the Doria due to its reputation, gets a lot of divers who may differ little from an AOW diver with a lot of dives, so working as a team to get the best result for everyone, would be difficult, to say the least. If the EU/Deep Asian methods were used, then it would reduce the risk but people have to get together more. Meanwhile more experienced divers simply work with the arrangements on the Doria and look after themselves. That is the setup there, probably for the reason DiverKlondike identified, so one just has to accept it.

I do fancy going back to the Doria. The main problem is now US Visas/Immigration. Russian divers are getting too much agro to get US visas, and several European divers I spoke to about this, are worried about the equipment and their foreign stamps in their passports: information on torture of innocent people in Guantanamo bay are major pages in European papers every week. (Let us not debate the bay issue here: these are folk both the US and UK agree are innocent, but are locked up just to frighten anyone who might be guilty - well it frightens off divers who have travelled to all sorts of countries). The US Immigration holding a group of UK technical divers going to DEMA in 2006 for 4 hours for questioning, did not help. Everyone points out there are more interesting dives elsewhere in the world. I have a list so long, it would take several lifetimes to get through half of it. If anyone wants to support a real unrepeatable expedition, then collar me for a choice.

Cheers

Alex

Capt.Dan · 11th February 2007, 06:48

I put a Tuna ball at the end of my line and also at the end of my transverse line.In the event a ship is heading toward me I can release the line and be free to manuver the boat.The dive teams are all briefed of this senerio in the event we need to get out of the way.As far as freighter traffic,In July of 2006 we were out there,and the Radar alarm did not let up all night.I spoke with Frankie Pellegrino and Richie Kohler who were out on the Britannic and told me the free deco system works well out there.The divers out there and in the U.K. are all familiar with that system.Personally, I would not feel comfortable doing a free deco system on the Doria.I have used that system on other offshore wrecks,in area's that did not have the traffic.If you have the right team the system really works well.

Safe Diving,
Capt.Dan

10th February 2007, 22:05	#31 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 793	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) It was used for the dives on the Brittanic. That is in a very much busier shipping lane than the Doria. Also, a boat anchored into the Doria in the fog is a hazard in itself: remember how the Doria sank! Alex Come on man smarten up. Your credibility is sinking fast by this statement alone. __________________ Safe Diving, Martin
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10th February 2007, 22:28	#32 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,689	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Also, a boat anchored into the Doria in the fog is a hazard in itself: remember how the Doria sank! Actually, it's not. It's in the safest possible place: The mandatory separation zone between the inbound and outbund lanes to New York. NO ships are in the zone. Now, the Repiblic? That's a different story. It would be nice if the folks with little or no experience here would listen to the guys who are here diving these waters all the time. Lots to learn if ya'll would listen to those of us who actually run boats here. We don't screw around, we're careful, and we dive safely. This isn't Turkey, or the Med, or anyplace else. It's here... and since we live here, listen to us. A diver doing a free hang under a SMB on the Doria is as good as a dead man. If he does not die after being "not" found, he'll be killed by the crew and Captain for screwing up after we find him for causing a Mate to need to chase him down on the open ocean in fogs and currents in a small RIB where that small boat is itself in a hazard condition. Endanger yourself, but don't endanger my mates... ;-) Dave __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 10th February 2007 at 22:32.
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10th February 2007, 22:52	#33 (permalink)
diverklondike Just one of the Peasants Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Delaware, USA Posts: 1,604	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) I will also expand what I meant when I referred to the boat operators as contributing to some of the accidents. There is a big difference in the way we handle offshore technical dives in Northern Europe compared to the NE USA: we do not anchor into wrecks. This means we do not waste 6 hours trying to anchor the Doria and then send down two guys to heave the anchor closer to the wreck or fix a traveller line between the anchor chain and the wreck or a second buoy line from the wreck to the surface, tied to the anchor. Alex Alex... I agree that the approach is very different between the two sides of the pond. Each approach has it's own + -'s. Here are a couple other things that add to the differences not that they are right or wrong. - Going to the Doria is a multi day trip that is in most cases a 10 hour run off shore. For most trips you are planning to make 3-5 dives depending on the duration if the conditions are perfect. If they are not you may be lucky to get one or two. - Typically there are different "teams" that are on a given trip that have different comfort levels. Some may only have plans for a quick tour on the top of the wreck and others may be planning for a longer duration and trip inside. - You add to this, multiple boats being on the wreck at one time... etc and matters are complicated further. The net is that in the "Northeast US" with the mix of divers, skills and protocals a drift deco station is not practical. Now if it was with a tight group of experianced divers/operator that used this approach on a regular basis that might be a different thing. It's unfortunate that the Doria holds the stigma that it does from it's sorted history. People have a tendancy to "get stupid" when it comes to diving this wreck due to the build up and effort that is required to get out there. In the long run it's better to have a fixed anchor line that someone can immedeatly turn around and come back up if they realize at some point they are over their head. (Let's not go spinning off on the "well should they be out there in the first place"... Hundreds of threads have been written on that one) BTW... Let me know when your coming over to the states next. Hopefully before DEMA... Dive Safe... Mark
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11th February 2007, 00:44	#34 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,689	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? What Mark said.... free drift deco here is not a viable option for the reasons he cites. Deep setup on EXPLORER: HEAVY clump weight (40 KG more or less) rigged to hang about 4 feet off the side, dangled from the ships boom rigged overboard. Weight at about 100 feet. Divers can literally jump in with the descent line in their hand and start descent immediately. Any gear problems, etc? They are on a reference line just at the side of the boat. Hang on! At 20 feet on the descent line we hang an 02 reg setup surface supplied from a J bottle of 02. This is a 4 hour 02 supply for 2 divers, just for emergencies. At the descent weight, an alu 80 of mix for any divers having a problem on ascent, as well as a strobe and a crossover line to the mooring line. On the bottom of the mooring (at the wreck), another strobe and another mix bottle for emergency use. Trailing from the transom, a 50 meter floating tag-line with an orange bouy at the end for the diver who lets go of the descent line and is swept aft by the current. Tied to the other side of EXPLORER is a RIB ready to go, with full open seas survival gear, radar reflector so we can find it later, waterproof VHF radio, and all set to go to the aid of a distressed diver. Sending a mate out in the RIB on the high seas 100+ miles offshore in fog and current is not something we take lightly. We hate it, it fact.... but we are prepared to do it. We may dive differently than you do, but we're not stupid. We don't take chances, and we don't make mistakes. This is a deadly serious game. Another reason we don't shot-line deep is so we can place the tie-in at the highest point of relief on the wreck. Shot lines just bounce down to the bottom. Dave __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 11th February 2007 at 01:32.
(Online)

11th February 2007, 01:45	#35 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 217	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) It was used for the dives on the Brittanic. That is in a very much busier shipping lane than the Doria. Also, a boat anchored into the Doria in the fog is a hazard in itself: remember how the Doria sank! Alex Last time I checked the Doria sank as the result of 2 vessels under way, making way in the same shipping lane going toward each other. This is pretty much the same as what you are suggesting with your drifting Deco scenario. Anchored on the Doria makes the dive boat a fixed non moving radar target anchored out of the shipping lane. I am at a loss to understand why you would choose to play "chicken" with 600' freighters traveling at 20+ knots as opposed to staying out of their way. Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com Last edited by O.C.Diver : 11th February 2007 at 01:48. Reason: spelling
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11th February 2007, 03:39	#36 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 793	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? On one side of the pond we have "Genesis" on the other side we have "Adward_9" and who said "we differ so much" __________________ Safe Diving, Martin
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11th February 2007, 04:16	#37 (permalink)
JOHNU New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: May 2006 Location: Tx Posts: 73	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Thanks everyone I appreciate your wreck suggestions and differing opinions on how to dive the Doria. Safe diving John
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11th February 2007, 06:10	#38 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,854	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver) Last time I checked the Doria sank as the result of 2 vessels under way, making way in the same shipping lane going toward each other. This is pretty much the same as what you are suggesting with your drifting Deco scenario. Anchored on the Doria makes the dive boat a fixed non moving radar target anchored out of the shipping lane. I am at a loss to understand why you would choose to play "chicken" with 600' freighters traveling at 20+ knots as opposed to staying out of their way. Ted If you are anchored in, you cannot get out of the way. I cannot think of a single big British dive in a busy shipping lane that anchored the wreck. HMS Dasher is smack underneath a car ferry lane that goes every 30 mins (thanks, to Cal Mac for a reroute for the dive), and the middle of the main shipping lane right up the Clyde. Dives in the Channel are much busier than the Doria. The group that did the Brittanic were in a harbour lane, vastly more busy than the Doria. In none of these dives did the divers think of anchoring in, so the passing tanker could "sort those chaps, good and proper". If you think a ship cannot hit a fixed object, you need more time on ships. Or come to Scotland: we have 10,000 wrecks around the coast, a great many of which are ships that had a go at passing through rock which was above the water line. Ships lose power, steering, people sleep, or are drunk, kit fails. A nuclear sub was even rammed head on once while at anchor sitting beside a quay by a boat leaving, and the video of the skipper watching TV on the bridge with his back to the bow, made for interesting questions. Anchoring into a solid object in a shipping lane does not sound a safe thing to do, just IMHO. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 11th February 2007 at 06:47.
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11th February 2007, 06:13	#39 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,854	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? Dave, The most experienced competition to the Explorer is exactly as I described: no chase boat, no strobes, no gas in the water, no-one on standby, not even the gas on deck supplied at astonishing cost was anywhere near what it said, and it took 6 hours to anchor a huge wreck! Air solos on first penetration still allowed. We went over there to check out why there were so many accidents before bringing over two groups of paying customers, saw the score, and decided to take customers to Jutland instead: safer, rarer. As I said, some operators are much better than others. The Explorer is probably the best one that does the Doria. Views anyone? The Seeker has a chase boat and is also much better than its primary competitor (not the Explorer). We differ on where shot lines should go, but that is another debate. DiverKlondike may have hit the nail on the head: the Doria due to its reputation, gets a lot of divers who may differ little from an AOW diver with a lot of dives, so working as a team to get the best result for everyone, would be difficult, to say the least. If the EU/Deep Asian methods were used, then it would reduce the risk but people have to get together more. Meanwhile more experienced divers simply work with the arrangements on the Doria and look after themselves. That is the setup there, probably for the reason DiverKlondike identified, so one just has to accept it. I do fancy going back to the Doria. The main problem is now US Visas/Immigration. Russian divers are getting too much agro to get US visas, and several European divers I spoke to about this, are worried about the equipment and their foreign stamps in their passports: information on torture of innocent people in Guantanamo bay are major pages in European papers every week. (Let us not debate the bay issue here: these are folk both the US and UK agree are innocent, but are locked up just to frighten anyone who might be guilty - well it frightens off divers who have travelled to all sorts of countries). The US Immigration holding a group of UK technical divers going to DEMA in 2006 for 4 hours for questioning, did not help. Everyone points out there are more interesting dives elsewhere in the world. I have a list so long, it would take several lifetimes to get through half of it. If anyone wants to support a real unrepeatable expedition, then collar me for a choice. Cheers Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 11th February 2007 at 06:53.
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11th February 2007, 06:48	#40 (permalink)
Capt.Dan New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: nj Posts: 8	Re: Prep wrecks for Doria?? Suggestions?? I put a Tuna ball at the end of my line and also at the end of my transverse line.In the event a ship is heading toward me I can release the line and be free to manuver the boat.The dive teams are all briefed of this senerio in the event we need to get out of the way.As far as freighter traffic,In July of 2006 we were out there,and the Radar alarm did not let up all night.I spoke with Frankie Pellegrino and Richie Kohler who were out on the Britannic and told me the free deco system works well out there.The divers out there and in the U.K. are all familiar with that system.Personally, I would not feel comfortable doing a free deco system on the Doria.I have used that system on other offshore wrecks,in area's that did not have the traffic.If you have the right team the system really works well. Safe Diving, Capt.Dan Last edited by Capt.Dan : 11th February 2007 at 06:57.
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