shadow divers

RebreatherNut

Bill,
I fully agree with your point of view here. I heard from a few other people who read the book from Gary that it is one pitty read, he just keeps moaning and groaning about Shadow Divers, Rober Kurson, John and Richie. I sure am not going to waste my money or time on Gary's book.

my 2 cents,

RBN

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Gill Envy

I was very much engrossed by "Shadow Divers". In fact, it was one of the precursers that primmed me for purchasing a rebreather...a good read at the very least.

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Gill Envy

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jamiemac

Just had John and Richie on the MV Trident ,Thailand filming the USS Lagarto. proper divers and proper blokes, they and the film crew were a pleasure to have on board.

John's back on board in May,Richie next year.

GMM

I Have Read Shadow Divers And Think It Is A Very Good Book, I Have Also Read Gary Gentiles Book "shadow Divers Exposed", It Is Dull, Borring,and Sour Grapes But Ok If You Want To Read A Book About A Man Moaning On For 380 Pages

diverklondike

For those of you that have interest in this topic and the actual sinking of the U-869, there have been some recent annoucements around the details of this event that do tie closer to those that were mentioned in Gary's book. These new findings have actually resulting in the US Coastguard and US Navy in changing their offical accounts of the sinking.

Coast Guard Combat Victory

The Sinking of the U-869

Sinking of U 869 USS Howard D. Crow DE 252

As mentioned before.. Shadow Divers is a fun read but I would not call it a "Non-Fiction" book... It's a story "based" on real events. If you speak with many of the people that participated in the some of the dives and events mentioned in the book, they will give you some very different accounts of what took place. Gary's book is the result of a group of people being very frustrated with some of the inaccuracies of Shadow Divers. With that it has done some very positive things for the dive industry as a whole.

Dive Safe..

Mark

RonMicjan

For what its worth, I have met and hung out with, on several occasions, John and Ritchie and thier wives and I cant even express how much fun and down to earth these guys are. We also did a serious deep dive thats accounted in Dive Portal #2 and they are great to dive with to boot. I really enjoyed Shadow Divers and wish the best for the movie venture. Check out their video magazine at Dive Portal DVD.

Everyone who has a clue about human nature, knows that there are 3 sides to every story, His, Hers, and the truth, which is somewhere in the middle. We all tend to embellish our side, its natural to present ourselve in the best light. Robert Kurston dug into things in John and Richie's lives that they couldnt have wanted aired to the public, but that is the kind of writer he is, he likes to get behind the scenes into the nitty gritty of the story. This additional digging helped made SD the excellent book that it is. Yes some of the "danger" seemed to be embellished to me as a deep mixed gas CCR wreck diver, but to the general public, its a seriously dangerous sport. I had friends who read the book come to me after and exclaim, "You do this stuff, what, are you crazy?" This from a guy who climbs mountains as his hobby! Now, THATS crazy! (go read "left for dead" "into thin air" and "Touching the void" Those guys are pure D nutz! yeah, I climbed to 10k feet in the snow, wasnt my cup of tea.

As far as Gary Gentile's book goes, I have not read it, but anyone who writes a book just to be negative about someone elses story, sounds lots like sour grapes to me. In mexico, last january, I ran a group trip and some folks from that group ran into Gary during setup for a Cenote dive. The story they came back with was that he was aloof, elitest and rude and wouldnt even converse with them. and he wonders why all his accomplishments were not made into a book that achived the notariety of SD? Sour Grapes indeed!

One divers opinion, worth what you paid for it!

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Nailer99

Yeah. I'm a newbie, don't even have a CCR yet, but.....I agree wholeheartedly. Well spoke, sir.

Dave Sutton

Hmmm..............

Hard to articulate what I want to say:

All of these guys ae locals here. I've known John for 20 years or so. Have had both he and Ritchie aboard EXPLORER (there will be a TV special this fall on the U-Boats, a portion of which was filmed aboard EXPLORER). I've also known Gary for years, albeit as one who had been thrown off of the dive boat that I cut my teeth on as a mate in 1974 thru more-or-less today (Sea Lion, first under Capt. George Hoffman, who literally invented the sport of NJ Wreck Diving starting in the early 1960's, now under Capt. Al Pyatak, who is likely my closest friend), so have heard it all or seen it all. Nagle's old 35 foot SEEKER used to be docked right next to us. Nagles "Large SEEKER", later Dan Crowell's SEEKER was docked right upstream of us. We all know each other and all of the personalities are well known. Like any family, we harass each other but don't want outsiders harassing any of our members. Nagle was a drunken scumbag, but he was *our family drunken scumbag* and outsiders ought to just leave it at that. He had lots of good traits as well. You had to know him to have a full opinion. Gentile was persona-non-grata aboard the SEA LION for reasons that are well known (and on this one, George Hoffman was right and Gary was wrong, and I know because I was there). With that said, Gary, having been thrown off the Sea Lion by Hoffman came to Hoffman's funeral and stood like a man. It's all in the family, *our* family of NJ wreck divers.


Here's my read:

All of these guys are long-lived experts in our NE wreck diving community. No shit, they all are the best of the best. All have made VERY important contributions. Gary was "the end of the first generation", IE the EDA (Eastern Dive Association), the old hard-core wreck divers led by Tommy Roach. Trust this: They invented the sport, and they invented it aboad the Sea Lion. The year that EDA ended was 1974, when Little John died on the Pinta (and which was my first year as a Jersey Wreck Diver). Many of the EDA members continued diving and I am honored to have been able to have learned from them. These traditions were carved in stone, and no joke: EDA V/S Post-EDA diving seperated two generations of divers here. I was there, just beginning as a diver at the transition, and appreciate both sides. John and Ritchie are "the beginning of the second generation". They were not around during the EDA and immediate post-EDA days. This may explain some of Gary's views. To him, post-EDA divers are "newcomers" of sorts. There's a third generation now too, the post "technical diving industry" divers who have no clue how their sport was built and developed, but that's another story. Just keep in mind that the very few remaining guys from Gen-1 have long memories. Gary is the only guy to have written down any of the early history. While seen thru his own (sometimes odd) prism, I cannot disagree with all that much that he writes. I do disagree with some.


In any case, to understand what he writes, you need to understand the man. :

Gary came back from Viet Nam *screwed up*, and has lived like a monk in his Philadelphia row house, working thru some really painful personal issues (as well as physical ones.... he came back from the 'Nam hurt badly), while at the same time performing some of the most detailed and excellent wreck research ever done. His contributions are *immense*, and should not be overlooked. He has done *the real deal* as a diver, no more and no less than either John or Ritchie. And this takes nothing away from either of them.

The issue is that Gary's personality is what it is: He's not a social guy. He's a misfit "of sorts". He is HIGHLY intelligent and well read. He's sometime scary to be around he's so friggin' smart. His expertise is detailed research and in-the-water diving. He's like Captain Ahab, only he hunts wrecks. He ought to be a world famous guy. He's *not* a rock-star personality, and would never come off as "fun loving" on TV. He probably ought to have a LOT more fame as a pioneering wreck diver, but his personality disorder (and there is no doubt that he has some sort of clinical disorder) interferes with his legend. He's probably sensitive to that. He's a *good guy* though, heart of gold, one who I would trust my life with, and a VERY capable diver.

Shadow Divers is a good book, good entertainment, and good insight.

Gary's books are also *very* good, generally are pretty accurate, and if you can filter out some of the "jousting at windmills" rambles, deserve a read too. The Lusitania Controversies is excellent, as are his books on the Doria. I know personally most of the people in these stories and can concur with much of what he writes, while disagreeing with many of his conclusions.

My advice? Read it all, and then you'll have 2/3 of the story. The last third can only be obtained by either having been a part of that generation, or by sitting on the deck and listening to the stories of the guys who were part of it. And, with all due respect, unless you were here, you'll never get the full flavor of the rich tapestry of personalities that paved the way for our community, so don't judge the folks you don't know.


Dave

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"Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com

RonMicjan

Well said Dave, thanks for filling in some of the blanks!

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Tom Rose

Wish I could claim the quote I use it so often

"everyone is the hero of their own story"

which sometimes gives an infinite variation on what happened...

And one I got from an x Navy Captain I worked for for 3 years.

"Pay as much or more attention to who said it as you do to what they say"

Which gives you insight on the truth...if possible

Both fit so many situations where people do not agree on what really happened....just like this one.

I cannot say I enjoyed either books, but I was fascinated to the end by both.

Having no pig in the fight helps a lot.

Tom

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