Maritime War Graves

powrep · 21st September 2006, 22:14

I am the current secretary for the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse Survivors Association, having taken over the role when my father, Kenneth Byrne passed away.
As some of you may be aware divers regularly dive the wrecks. Many have entered the ships and taken videos and photos of the inside. Some of the photos are on the Internet and show human remains. We believe that any war grave should be protected whether on land or sea, in British or International waters.
Please find below a message I have posted on our Website in response to other postings. www.forcez-survivors.org.uk
My father served on HMS Prince of Wales and was 17 years and one month when the Prince of Wales was sunk; his friend was the same age but did not survive the sinking and still lies with his ship. This is something my father never forgot.
Kevin, you seem to think that most survives do not own a computer or have access to the Internet, your wrong. My father had his first computer at the age of 75, Internet ready. Most survivors have children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren who own computers and are able to simply type in HMS Repulse, you try it, see what comes up!
I have had the pleasure of meeting the L/T Shirley Ward. Her father served on HMS Repulse, she was a baby when her father died. His final resting place is HMS Repulse. Shirley was one of the first persons to inform the association of the activity of divers on the wrecks. When I see a photo, clip of a film on the Internet, for all I know I could be looking at the remains of Shirley’s father, for that matter a father or grandfather of another member of the Association. When you have met these people personally you see a different picture.
What should the association do, keep quiet or to work to try and protect the final resting places of hero’s who died fighting for their country, some of whom were only boys.
I have a duty to report to members anything that is brought to my attention. The matter was again on the agenda for the AGM this year. Again the members voted for the Association to continue to campaign for changes in the law to stop divers entering the ships. This is what we shall do.
Please don’t get me wrong, we do not want to stop divers visiting the ships, BUT PLEASE DO NOT ENTER, PLEASE DO NOT DISTURB THE FINAL RESTING PLACE OF THESE MEN.
We don’t just want this for HMS Repulse or HMS Prince of Wales, we would like this for all maritime war graves, what ever their nationality. If the law is not changed and international agreements set in place, one-day divers will be in HMS Hood and the Bismarck. The Association wants protection for every war grave whether on land or at sea.

Hannah Rickard

divetheworld · 21st September 2006, 23:39

Am I the only one with mixed feelings over this first post?

***EBT*** · 21st September 2006, 23:50

Not at all brent.

Hannah, please check your email, obviously we need to check the identities of individuals claiming to represent survivors groups.

For what its worth, I PERSONALLY fail to see the distinction between war graves, cemeteries and sites of RTA's. All should be afforded respect but i fail to see how attempting to ban visitors aids the general public.

/Zak

Footnote. Identity confirmed...

jamiemac · 13th October 2006, 14:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

Not at all brent.

Hannah, please check your email, obviously we need to check the identities of individuals claiming to represent survivors groups.

For what its worth, I PERSONALLY fail to see the distinction between war graves, cemeteries and sites of RTA's. All should be afforded respect but i fail to see how attempting to ban visitors aids the general public.

/Zak

Footnote. Identity confirmed...

it's a tough one. personaly speaking every diver that i've ever taken to a wargrave has shown the utmost respect. divers that are interested in WW2 know the sacrifice that the saliors made.

jamie macleod MV Trident

Mdemon · 13th October 2006, 14:26

Sorry, but I fundamentally disagree with the idea of memorialising people who died using the transport they were using when they died.

A memorial people can visit and pay their last respects is appropriate. A lump of rusty metal on which the deceased's remains are unlikely even to have gone down on seems a pretty poor substitute.

If human remains are found, I believe we are obliged to report this and IIRC it is forbidden to touch them - maybe someone could add to this?

Just a thought Hannah, but what exactly do you think divers are doing when they are on these wrecks?

Quote: (Originally Posted by powrep)

I am the current secretary for the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse Survivors Association, having taken over the role when my father, Kenneth Byrne passed away.
As some of you may be aware divers regularly dive the wrecks. Many have entered the ships and taken videos and photos of the inside. Some of the photos are on the Internet and show human remains. We believe that any war grave should be protected whether on land or sea, in British or International waters.
Please find below a message I have posted on our Website in response to other postings. www.forcez-survivors.org.uk
My father served on HMS Prince of Wales and was 17 years and one month when the Prince of Wales was sunk; his friend was the same age but did not survive the sinking and still lies with his ship. This is something my father never forgot.
Kevin, you seem to think that most survives do not own a computer or have access to the Internet, your wrong. My father had his first computer at the age of 75, Internet ready. Most survivors have children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren who own computers and are able to simply type in HMS Repulse, you try it, see what comes up!
I have had the pleasure of meeting the L/T Shirley Ward. Her father served on HMS Repulse, she was a baby when her father died. His final resting place is HMS Repulse. Shirley was one of the first persons to inform the association of the activity of divers on the wrecks. When I see a photo, clip of a film on the Internet, for all I know I could be looking at the remains of Shirley’s father, for that matter a father or grandfather of another member of the Association. When you have met these people personally you see a different picture.
What should the association do, keep quiet or to work to try and protect the final resting places of hero’s who died fighting for their country, some of whom were only boys.
I have a duty to report to members anything that is brought to my attention. The matter was again on the agenda for the AGM this year. Again the members voted for the Association to continue to campaign for changes in the law to stop divers entering the ships. This is what we shall do.
Please don’t get me wrong, we do not want to stop divers visiting the ships, BUT PLEASE DO NOT ENTER, PLEASE DO NOT DISTURB THE FINAL RESTING PLACE OF THESE MEN.
We don’t just want this for HMS Repulse or HMS Prince of Wales, we would like this for all maritime war graves, what ever their nationality. If the law is not changed and international agreements set in place, one-day divers will be in HMS Hood and the Bismarck. The Association wants protection for every war grave whether on land or at sea.

Hannah Rickard

***EBT*** · 13th October 2006, 14:38

Lets all just remember that this first is the stated position from an official rep of the survivors association. Whilst we all hold opinions, they've been good enough to clearly state theirs on our forum.

Im sure this thread can be treated appropriately, but if it diverges too much Im sure you'll understand that we may need to moderate it.

Thanks...

**PhilSiswick** · 13th October 2006, 15:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

For what its worth, I PERSONALLY fail to see the distinction between war graves, cemeteries and sites of RTA's. All should be afforded respect but i fail to see how attempting to ban visitors aids the general public.

/Zak

Footnote. Identity confirmed...

Agree entirely. For one thing, as time passes and the survivors pass away, divers may be the only people who remember that a ship sank, let alone existed. Is the act of researching and visiting a wreck not some form of memorial to those who died?

Another thing comes to mind - whenever I've been to Scapa, I've popped up to the graveyard at Lyness. I've only ever met other divers and people of the age of WWII veterans (or older). There may come a time when only divers remember...

Of course, I do have to make clear that I'm not in support of 'salvaging' or plundering.

Cheers,

6Gill · 13th October 2006, 15:11

I think care should be taken regarding the feelings of the families of the lost. I think most would agree that posting photos or videos of remains on the Internet would cross the line. To view the issue from a different perspective, how would our families feel if one of us died in an Rebreather accident and divers were posting pictures of our remains floating about the ocean floor?

**PhilSiswick** · 13th October 2006, 15:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by jerry@jwwhatley.com)

I think care should be taken regarding the feelings of the families of the lost. I think most would agree that posting photos or videos of remains on the Internet would cross the line. To view the issue from a different perspective, how would our families feel if one of us died in an Rebreather accident and divers were posting pictures of our remains floating about the ocean floor?

Very fair point. Not one I've had to face (and not one I really want to). All the wrecks I have ever seen are far too old for there to be remains. I can't imagine what would make someone want to post pictures of remains anyway.

We (divers) probably need to define a code for this kind of thing, along the lines of the 'take only pictures, leave only bubbles' strap line.

Cheers,

6Gill · 13th October 2006, 15:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick)

Very fair point. Not one I've had to face (and not one I really want to). All the wrecks I have ever seen are far too old for there to be remains. I can't imagine what would make someone want to post pictures of remains anyway.

We (divers) probably need to define a code for this kind of thing, along the lines of the 'take only pictures, leave only bubbles' strap line.

Cheers,

Agreed, I think it is fairly easy to gain consensus on not publishing photos of remains. The more complex issue is should a wreck that contains remains be penetrated? There may be some middle ground if compartments where remains are discovered are marked and left undisturbed, this was a bit of a dilemma on the exploration of the U-Who. Most of the divers I've encountered are respectful.

21st September 2006, 22:14	#1 (permalink)
powrep New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: london Posts: 1	Maritime War Graves I am the current secretary for the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse Survivors Association, having taken over the role when my father, Kenneth Byrne passed away. As some of you may be aware divers regularly dive the wrecks. Many have entered the ships and taken videos and photos of the inside. Some of the photos are on the Internet and show human remains. We believe that any war grave should be protected whether on land or sea, in British or International waters. Please find below a message I have posted on our Website in response to other postings. www.forcez-survivors.org.uk My father served on HMS Prince of Wales and was 17 years and one month when the Prince of Wales was sunk; his friend was the same age but did not survive the sinking and still lies with his ship. This is something my father never forgot. Kevin, you seem to think that most survives do not own a computer or have access to the Internet, your wrong. My father had his first computer at the age of 75, Internet ready. Most survivors have children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren who own computers and are able to simply type in HMS Repulse, you try it, see what comes up! I have had the pleasure of meeting the L/T Shirley Ward. Her father served on HMS Repulse, she was a baby when her father died. His final resting place is HMS Repulse. Shirley was one of the first persons to inform the association of the activity of divers on the wrecks. When I see a photo, clip of a film on the Internet, for all I know I could be looking at the remains of Shirley’s father, for that matter a father or grandfather of another member of the Association. When you have met these people personally you see a different picture. What should the association do, keep quiet or to work to try and protect the final resting places of hero’s who died fighting for their country, some of whom were only boys. I have a duty to report to members anything that is brought to my attention. The matter was again on the agenda for the AGM this year. Again the members voted for the Association to continue to campaign for changes in the law to stop divers entering the ships. This is what we shall do. Please don’t get me wrong, we do not want to stop divers visiting the ships, BUT PLEASE DO NOT ENTER, PLEASE DO NOT DISTURB THE FINAL RESTING PLACE OF THESE MEN. We don’t just want this for HMS Repulse or HMS Prince of Wales, we would like this for all maritime war graves, what ever their nationality. If the law is not changed and international agreements set in place, one-day divers will be in HMS Hood and the Bismarck. The Association wants protection for every war grave whether on land or at sea. Hannah Rickard
(Offline)

21st September 2006, 23:39	#2 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,636	Re: Maritime War Graves Am I the only one with mixed feelings over this first post? __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
(Offline)

21st September 2006, 23:50	#3 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,105	Re: Maritime War Graves Not at all brent. Hannah, please check your email, obviously we need to check the identities of individuals claiming to represent survivors groups. For what its worth, I PERSONALLY fail to see the distinction between war graves, cemeteries and sites of RTA's. All should be afforded respect but i fail to see how attempting to ban visitors aids the general public. /Zak Footnote. Identity confirmed... __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service Last edited by EBT : 25th September 2006 at 12:14.
(Offline)

13th October 2006, 14:08	#4 (permalink)
jamiemac RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: thailand Posts: 37	Re: Maritime War Graves Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) Not at all brent. Hannah, please check your email, obviously we need to check the identities of individuals claiming to represent survivors groups. For what its worth, I PERSONALLY fail to see the distinction between war graves, cemeteries and sites of RTA's. All should be afforded respect but i fail to see how attempting to ban visitors aids the general public. /Zak Footnote. Identity confirmed... it's a tough one. personaly speaking every diver that i've ever taken to a wargrave has shown the utmost respect. divers that are interested in WW2 know the sacrifice that the saliors made. jamie macleod MV Trident
(Offline)

13th October 2006, 14:26	#5 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,946	Re: Maritime War Graves Sorry, but I fundamentally disagree with the idea of memorialising people who died using the transport they were using when they died. A memorial people can visit and pay their last respects is appropriate. A lump of rusty metal on which the deceased's remains are unlikely even to have gone down on seems a pretty poor substitute. If human remains are found, I believe we are obliged to report this and IIRC it is forbidden to touch them - maybe someone could add to this? Just a thought Hannah, but what exactly do you think divers are doing when they are on these wrecks? Quote: (Originally Posted by powrep) I am the current secretary for the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse Survivors Association, having taken over the role when my father, Kenneth Byrne passed away. As some of you may be aware divers regularly dive the wrecks. Many have entered the ships and taken videos and photos of the inside. Some of the photos are on the Internet and show human remains. We believe that any war grave should be protected whether on land or sea, in British or International waters. Please find below a message I have posted on our Website in response to other postings. www.forcez-survivors.org.uk My father served on HMS Prince of Wales and was 17 years and one month when the Prince of Wales was sunk; his friend was the same age but did not survive the sinking and still lies with his ship. This is something my father never forgot. Kevin, you seem to think that most survives do not own a computer or have access to the Internet, your wrong. My father had his first computer at the age of 75, Internet ready. Most survivors have children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren who own computers and are able to simply type in HMS Repulse, you try it, see what comes up! I have had the pleasure of meeting the L/T Shirley Ward. Her father served on HMS Repulse, she was a baby when her father died. His final resting place is HMS Repulse. Shirley was one of the first persons to inform the association of the activity of divers on the wrecks. When I see a photo, clip of a film on the Internet, for all I know I could be looking at the remains of Shirley’s father, for that matter a father or grandfather of another member of the Association. When you have met these people personally you see a different picture. What should the association do, keep quiet or to work to try and protect the final resting places of hero’s who died fighting for their country, some of whom were only boys. I have a duty to report to members anything that is brought to my attention. The matter was again on the agenda for the AGM this year. Again the members voted for the Association to continue to campaign for changes in the law to stop divers entering the ships. This is what we shall do. Please don’t get me wrong, we do not want to stop divers visiting the ships, BUT PLEASE DO NOT ENTER, PLEASE DO NOT DISTURB THE FINAL RESTING PLACE OF THESE MEN. We don’t just want this for HMS Repulse or HMS Prince of Wales, we would like this for all maritime war graves, what ever their nationality. If the law is not changed and international agreements set in place, one-day divers will be in HMS Hood and the Bismarck. The Association wants protection for every war grave whether on land or at sea. Hannah Rickard __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?" Last edited by Mdemon : 13th October 2006 at 14:33.
(Offline)

13th October 2006, 14:38	#6 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,105	Re: Maritime War Graves Lets all just remember that this first is the stated position from an official rep of the survivors association. Whilst we all hold opinions, they've been good enough to clearly state theirs on our forum. Im sure this thread can be treated appropriately, but if it diverges too much Im sure you'll understand that we may need to moderate it. Thanks... __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service Last edited by EBT : 13th October 2006 at 14:57. Reason: spelling
(Offline)

13th October 2006, 15:05	#7 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,092	Re: Maritime War Graves Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) For what its worth, I PERSONALLY fail to see the distinction between war graves, cemeteries and sites of RTA's. All should be afforded respect but i fail to see how attempting to ban visitors aids the general public. /Zak Footnote. Identity confirmed... Agree entirely. For one thing, as time passes and the survivors pass away, divers may be the only people who remember that a ship sank, let alone existed. Is the act of researching and visiting a wreck not some form of memorial to those who died? Another thing comes to mind - whenever I've been to Scapa, I've popped up to the graveyard at Lyness. I've only ever met other divers and people of the age of WWII veterans (or older). There may come a time when only divers remember... Of course, I do have to make clear that I'm not in support of 'salvaging' or plundering. Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
(Offline)

13th October 2006, 15:11	#8 (permalink)
6Gill Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 112	Re: Maritime War Graves I think care should be taken regarding the feelings of the families of the lost. I think most would agree that posting photos or videos of remains on the Internet would cross the line. To view the issue from a different perspective, how would our families feel if one of us died in an Rebreather accident and divers were posting pictures of our remains floating about the ocean floor?
(Offline)

13th October 2006, 15:27	#9 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,092	Re: Maritime War Graves Quote: (Originally Posted by jerry@jwwhatley.com) I think care should be taken regarding the feelings of the families of the lost. I think most would agree that posting photos or videos of remains on the Internet would cross the line. To view the issue from a different perspective, how would our families feel if one of us died in an Rebreather accident and divers were posting pictures of our remains floating about the ocean floor? Very fair point. Not one I've had to face (and not one I really want to). All the wrecks I have ever seen are far too old for there to be remains. I can't imagine what would make someone want to post pictures of remains anyway. We (divers) probably need to define a code for this kind of thing, along the lines of the 'take only pictures, leave only bubbles' strap line. Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
(Offline)

13th October 2006, 15:35	#10 (permalink)
6Gill Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 112	Re: Maritime War Graves Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick) Very fair point. Not one I've had to face (and not one I really want to). All the wrecks I have ever seen are far too old for there to be remains. I can't imagine what would make someone want to post pictures of remains anyway. We (divers) probably need to define a code for this kind of thing, along the lines of the 'take only pictures, leave only bubbles' strap line. Cheers, Agreed, I think it is fairly easy to gain consensus on not publishing photos of remains. The more complex issue is should a wreck that contains remains be penetrated? There may be some middle ground if compartments where remains are discovered are marked and left undisturbed, this was a bit of a dilemma on the exploration of the U-Who. Most of the divers I've encountered are respectful.
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode