The formal handing-over of the ship's bell of the HMS Vestal

Deep Blue Divers, Phuket · 15th March 2008, 01:45

Hi Mat,
sorry sorry, how could I forget you.
I think it was a bit late last night.
Mea culpa!
To all: Only Deep Blue Divers and Protec have the coordinates from the HMS Vestal.
Mat, any news about the caves in Krabi or Kao Sok?

Drmike · 15th March 2008, 03:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Abbo)

What the Admiralty does or does not want, I would have thought, is of very much secondary importance. It is not they who have lost family members.

the MOD own the wreck, the bell is their property their wishes are therefore very relevant. As to your comment about family members try dealing with any of the survivors associations. Ive had dealings wiith a few and with UK and US navy over discoveries weve made (USS Perch, USS Lagarto etc and UK Navy and survivors association for HMS Repulse/Prince of wales (Force z) and I can tell you they dont want divers pilaging (their words) the graves of their lost comrades.
I even had to passoword protect all the salavage pics on my website due to hate mail - I kid you not.

Quote:

Before Joerg and Andreas found the wrecks of the Vestal and the Squirrel nobody knew where either was. Until they found the bell, nobody knew which was the Vestal and which the Squirrel. If I had lost a close family member I would like to know at least where the wreck was: that would give some closure.

I believe it was wreck diver extradiinair and salvage king Fred Evans who located what was assumed to be the Vestel together with Joerg in 2005 IIRC. Location of Vetal and sister ship Squirrel have been known a while and dived. Now they found the bell we know which one is which. Of course survovors assoiction want to know. this was the feedback I got from relatives of Lagarto and Perch too - they were very happy indeed we found the wrecks and really pleased to see photos and find out location (in case of lagarto to also have an idea how she was lost) and weve done a few memorial trips with relatives/survivors too - but they still dont want anything taken off the wrecks - THAT was my only point.

Quote:

If it had been me that had found it I would have kept the bell on my mantelpiece, but kudos to A&J for handing it over.

I agree.

Quote:

As they point out, the Vestal has historical importance as the last British ship lost in the war. I would like to think that the bell will now be taken care of and put in a museum where people can see it and spare a thought for the people who died on it, and on all the ships like it.

It will more likely stay in a store room out of sight.

Quote:

Whatever, it's a cracking good wreck and Joerg & Andreas have a great operation that I would recommend to anyone.

Certainly looks like its worth a visit - been meaning to get up there for a while now, just never had the chance (was more opertunity for discoveries in Gulf and Java sea)

Drmike · 15th March 2008, 04:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Deep Blue Divers, Phuket)

[IMG]file:///C:/DOKUME%7E1/DBD/LOKALE%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]Hi Mike,

Sorry, but there you totally wrong.

wrong about what?

I never said the location was known - I asked if it was known as I recall seeing both wreck locations. what was unknown IIRC but it was a few years ago II looked into this was which wreck was which. The admiralty charts are often way off, inaccurate or plain wrong anyway as we have proved time and time again. I recall discussing the finding of the Vestel with my buddy Fred Evans who I believe ID the wreck with you several years ago??

Or are you trying to suggest I am wrong about the navy not wanting people taking the bells off their wrecks?? Just because they didnt in this case ask you to put it back, doesnt mean Im wrong about their position on the fact they dont want people taking stuff (even bells) off their wrecks, or that uk citizen can be arrested for doing so.
They see it as grave robbing. Just check out the force z survivors website - you will read some venemous attacks on divers (incuding one against yours truly)

Quote:

The position of the HMS Vestal was unknown until the day, we found the bell on this wreck south of Phuket.
Neither the British Royal Navy nor anybody else knew the sinking position. Until today, only Deep Blue Divers has the exact GPS coordinates for the Vestal.
Please don’t mix-up the HMS Vestal with the HMS Squirrel.
In the first email of the Royal Navy, they made their position very clear, and we respect their rules. But not at any time, they asked us to bring the bell back to the wreck.
If you wont, I will post the email of the British Royal Navy and our answer mail to you.
Then it becomes clear also for you that we have done the right thing.
Andreas

You did the right thing handing the bell over BUT you didnt do the right thing (In their eyes) by taking the bell (their property) off their wreck (their property and a war grave) in the first place. Thats my only point.

I too have nice thank you letters from navy thanking us for our 'cooperation' but that too doesnt change the fact they dont want anything taken off the wrecks. Just if it is they want us to cooperate in giving it (their property) back rather than keeping it. (as most divers would likely do I suspect)

Look Im not having a go, Ive got more brass in my house than you can wave a large stick at, much of it ripped off wrecks together with Fred, if you could see my hidden gallaries you would know my position on salvage - but that doesnt change the facts re navy positions on removal of artifacts from their war graves - MAJOR NO NO

Like I said you did the honourabe thing by handing it in - but thats a bit like breaking into someones house stealing their TV set then doing the honourabe thing by giving it back to them

In my dealings with navies they usually dont care so much as the survivors association about locations of wrecks (especially USN) and they have more than enough equipment to find and ID all their lost wrecks - the reason they dont is proof of ID comes at a cost to them to formery ID (ie dive themselves - see Lagarto), admin the wrecks and they really want them left alone in peace.

Drmike · 15th March 2008, 04:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by Deep Blue Divers, Phuket)

To all: Only Deep Blue Divers and Protec have the coordinates from the HMS Vestal.

So I take it the wreck at location of WGS84 N07' 41.5X" E098' 15.56X" is not the Vestal?

Is it the Squirrel?

Being sister ships and sunk so close together it would be easy to get the two confused.
I pressume the bell corrected the ID?

Deep Blue Divers, Phuket · 15th March 2008, 05:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

So I take it the wreck at location of WGS84 N07' 41.5X" E098' 15.56X" is not the Vestal?

Is it the Squirrel?

Being sister ships and sunk so close together it would be easy to get the two confused.
I pressume the bell corrected the ID?

Mike
this is correct. The ship on position
N07' 41.530'' E98' 15.570'' is the HMS Squirrel, sunk on July 24th 1945. Her sister ship, the HMS Vestal sunk two days later around 3 miles south of the Squirrel.
For more informations: Deep Blue Divers Technical Diving Rebreather Nitrox Trimix Tauchen TDI IART Phuket Thailand
go to Tec-Diving
And one more thing, you can belive it or not.
If we had 100% known that it is the wreck of the HMS Vestal we would have left the bell there.
As we didn’t know at this time that it is the HMS Vestal we took the bell with us to identify this unknown wreck. It would have been much better for us to have the bell at the wreck to show it our customers than having it in any museum in England.

Drmike · 15th March 2008, 06:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by Deep Blue Divers, Phuket)

If we had 100% known that it is the wreck of the HMS Vestal we would have left the bell there.
As we didn’t know at this time that it is the HMS Vestal we took the bell with us to identify this unknown wreck. It would have been much better for us to have the bell at the wreck to show it our customers than having it in any museum in England.

im very sure once word got out bell was there and its local it would have soon disapeared....phuket is only 1 hour flight from singapore

Lancer4545 · 15th March 2008, 09:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

im very sure once word got out bell was there and its local it would have soon disapeared....phuket is only 1 hour flight from singapore

A couple of stage tanks and your scooters and you could have done the whole operation in complete stealth........

Looks like your cover is blown!!!

Lance

Drmike · 15th March 2008, 11:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545)

A couple of stage tanks and your scooters and you could have done the whole operation in complete stealth........

Looks like your cover is blown!!!

Lance

nah only kidding

, dont want anymore brass the maid complains that she has to polish it all

jamiemac · 16th March 2008, 01:46

[quote=Deep Blue Divers, Phuket;174314]Mike
this is correct. The ship on position
N07' 41.530'' E98' 15.570'' is the HMS Squirrel, sunk on July 24th 1945. Her sister ship, the HMS Vestal sunk two days later around 3 miles south of the Squirrel.

For what it's worth I think you did the right thing. A 100% postive ID is worth it. My Uncle Arthur who was present on HMS Nelson when both ships were sunk , got it the wrong way round!

At least there will no mistake now.

I've never had the chance to dive the Vestal, we passed over the site late at night 3 years when we bought the Trident so missed out - saw her on the sounder , though.

I know if we ever take anything from Lagarto, we'll be hung by the USN, you're right, Mike.

They even got a little miffed when we mentioned removing nets, but seeing as our loyal group of Lagarto families requested it, we did it anyway. oops.

Have Deep Blue Divers forgiven MV Trident yet? hope so!

Jamie MV Trident

trimix · 4th May 2008, 18:12

Its always fun to find a bell or ID a lost ship, Ive been involved with a few discoveries myself - but lets be clear the Navies dont want you disturbing their wrecks and dont want you bringing the bells up.

I agree 100% + with these sentiments. I just posted a big reply to a member regarding the recent trip to the Gulf of Thailand, where a number of 'artifacts' were brought up - no offense was intended, but I hope as a technical diving community we can be respectful and protective of these rare treasures that only we have the prividelge to be able to see for ourselves.
The more we take away from the wrecks, the less remains for us and our buddies to see in the future. The 1970's are over, fellas. Leave it on the bottom where it will actually be of value to us all.

Kudos to you guys for reporting the find to the Navy -very honorable of you. Sending greenies...

15th March 2008, 01:45	#11 (permalink)
Deep Blue Divers, Phuket New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phuket, Thailand Posts: 9	Re: The formal handing-over of the ship's bell of the HMS Vestal Hi Mat, sorry sorry, how could I forget you. I think it was a bit late last night. Mea culpa! To all: Only Deep Blue Divers and Protec have the coordinates from the HMS Vestal. Mat, any news about the caves in Krabi or Kao Sok?
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15th March 2008, 03:57	#12 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,300	Re: The formal handing-over of the ship's bell of the HMS Vestal Quote: (Originally Posted by Abbo) What the Admiralty does or does not want, I would have thought, is of very much secondary importance. It is not they who have lost family members. the MOD own the wreck, the bell is their property their wishes are therefore very relevant. As to your comment about family members try dealing with any of the survivors associations. Ive had dealings wiith a few and with UK and US navy over discoveries weve made (USS Perch, USS Lagarto etc and UK Navy and survivors association for HMS Repulse/Prince of wales (Force z) and I can tell you they dont want divers pilaging (their words) the graves of their lost comrades. I even had to passoword protect all the salavage pics on my website due to hate mail - I kid you not. Quote: Before Joerg and Andreas found the wrecks of the Vestal and the Squirrel nobody knew where either was. Until they found the bell, nobody knew which was the Vestal and which the Squirrel. If I had lost a close family member I would like to know at least where the wreck was: that would give some closure. I believe it was wreck diver extradiinair and salvage king Fred Evans who located what was assumed to be the Vestel together with Joerg in 2005 IIRC. Location of Vetal and sister ship Squirrel have been known a while and dived. Now they found the bell we know which one is which. Of course survovors assoiction want to know. this was the feedback I got from relatives of Lagarto and Perch too - they were very happy indeed we found the wrecks and really pleased to see photos and find out location (in case of lagarto to also have an idea how she was lost) and weve done a few memorial trips with relatives/survivors too - but they still dont want anything taken off the wrecks - THAT was my only point. Quote: If it had been me that had found it I would have kept the bell on my mantelpiece, but kudos to A&J for handing it over. I agree. Quote: As they point out, the Vestal has historical importance as the last British ship lost in the war. I would like to think that the bell will now be taken care of and put in a museum where people can see it and spare a thought for the people who died on it, and on all the ships like it. It will more likely stay in a store room out of sight. Quote: Whatever, it's a cracking good wreck and Joerg & Andreas have a great operation that I would recommend to anyone. Certainly looks like its worth a visit - been meaning to get up there for a while now, just never had the chance (was more opertunity for discoveries in Gulf and Java sea) __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 15th March 2008 at 04:53.
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15th March 2008, 04:26	#13 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,300	Re: The formal handing-over of the ship's bell of the HMS Vestal Quote: (Originally Posted by Deep Blue Divers, Phuket) [IMG]file:///C:/DOKUME%7E1/DBD/LOKALE%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]Hi Mike, Sorry, but there you totally wrong. wrong about what? I never said the location was known - I asked if it was known as I recall seeing both wreck locations. what was unknown IIRC but it was a few years ago II looked into this was which wreck was which. The admiralty charts are often way off, inaccurate or plain wrong anyway as we have proved time and time again. I recall discussing the finding of the Vestel with my buddy Fred Evans who I believe ID the wreck with you several years ago?? Or are you trying to suggest I am wrong about the navy not wanting people taking the bells off their wrecks?? Just because they didnt in this case ask you to put it back, doesnt mean Im wrong about their position on the fact they dont want people taking stuff (even bells) off their wrecks, or that uk citizen can be arrested for doing so. They see it as grave robbing. Just check out the force z survivors website - you will read some venemous attacks on divers (incuding one against yours truly) Quote: The position of the HMS Vestal was unknown until the day, we found the bell on this wreck south of Phuket. Neither the British Royal Navy nor anybody else knew the sinking position. Until today, only Deep Blue Divers has the exact GPS coordinates for the Vestal. Please don’t mix-up the HMS Vestal with the HMS Squirrel. In the first email of the Royal Navy, they made their position very clear, and we respect their rules. But not at any time, they asked us to bring the bell back to the wreck. If you wont, I will post the email of the British Royal Navy and our answer mail to you. Then it becomes clear also for you that we have done the right thing. Andreas You did the right thing handing the bell over BUT you didnt do the right thing (In their eyes) by taking the bell (their property) off their wreck (their property and a war grave) in the first place. Thats my only point. I too have nice thank you letters from navy thanking us for our 'cooperation' but that too doesnt change the fact they dont want anything taken off the wrecks. Just if it is they want us to cooperate in giving it (their property) back rather than keeping it. (as most divers would likely do I suspect) Look Im not having a go, Ive got more brass in my house than you can wave a large stick at, much of it ripped off wrecks together with Fred, if you could see my hidden gallaries you would know my position on salvage - but that doesnt change the facts re navy positions on removal of artifacts from their war graves - MAJOR NO NO Like I said you did the honourabe thing by handing it in - but thats a bit like breaking into someones house stealing their TV set then doing the honourabe thing by giving it back to them In my dealings with navies they usually dont care so much as the survivors association about locations of wrecks (especially USN) and they have more than enough equipment to find and ID all their lost wrecks - the reason they dont is proof of ID comes at a cost to them to formery ID (ie dive themselves - see Lagarto), admin the wrecks and they really want them left alone in peace. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 15th March 2008 at 04:42.
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15th March 2008, 04:45	#14 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,300	Re: The formal handing-over of the ship's bell of the HMS Vestal Quote: (Originally Posted by Deep Blue Divers, Phuket) To all: Only Deep Blue Divers and Protec have the coordinates from the HMS Vestal. So I take it the wreck at location of WGS84 N07' 41.5X" E098' 15.56X" is not the Vestal? Is it the Squirrel? Being sister ships and sunk so close together it would be easy to get the two confused. I pressume the bell corrected the ID? __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 15th March 2008 at 04:56.
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15th March 2008, 05:44	#15 (permalink)
Deep Blue Divers, Phuket New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phuket, Thailand Posts: 9	Re: The formal handing-over of the ship's bell of the HMS Vestal Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) So I take it the wreck at location of WGS84 N07' 41.5X" E098' 15.56X" is not the Vestal? Is it the Squirrel? Being sister ships and sunk so close together it would be easy to get the two confused. I pressume the bell corrected the ID? Mike this is correct. The ship on position N07' 41.530'' E98' 15.570'' is the HMS Squirrel, sunk on July 24th 1945. Her sister ship, the HMS Vestal sunk two days later around 3 miles south of the Squirrel. For more informations: Deep Blue Divers Technical Diving Rebreather Nitrox Trimix Tauchen TDI IART Phuket Thailand go to Tec-Diving And one more thing, you can belive it or not. If we had 100% known that it is the wreck of the HMS Vestal we would have left the bell there. As we didn’t know at this time that it is the HMS Vestal we took the bell with us to identify this unknown wreck. It would have been much better for us to have the bell at the wreck to show it our customers than having it in any museum in England.
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15th March 2008, 06:27	#16 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,300	Re: The formal handing-over of the ship's bell of the HMS Vestal Quote: (Originally Posted by Deep Blue Divers, Phuket) If we had 100% known that it is the wreck of the HMS Vestal we would have left the bell there. As we didn’t know at this time that it is the HMS Vestal we took the bell with us to identify this unknown wreck. It would have been much better for us to have the bell at the wreck to show it our customers than having it in any museum in England. im very sure once word got out bell was there and its local it would have soon disapeared....phuket is only 1 hour flight from singapore __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 15th March 2008 at 06:32.
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15th March 2008, 09:35	#17 (permalink)
Lancer4545 Closed Circuit Divers Aus Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cairns QLD Australia Posts: 658	Re: The formal handing-over of the ship's bell of the HMS Vestal Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) im very sure once word got out bell was there and its local it would have soon disapeared....phuket is only 1 hour flight from singapore A couple of stage tanks and your scooters and you could have done the whole operation in complete stealth........ Looks like your cover is blown!!! Lance __________________ You can run but you can't hide! ISC Appointed Megalodon Dealer for East Australia http://www.closedcircuitdivers.com.au info@closedcircuitdivers.com.au
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15th March 2008, 11:56	#18 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,300	Re: The formal handing-over of the ship's bell of the HMS Vestal Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545) A couple of stage tanks and your scooters and you could have done the whole operation in complete stealth........ Looks like your cover is blown!!! Lance nah only kidding , dont want anymore brass the maid complains that she has to polish it all __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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16th March 2008, 01:46	#19 (permalink)
jamiemac New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: thailand Posts: 32	Re: The formal handing-over of the ship's bell of the HMS Vestal [quote=Deep Blue Divers, Phuket;174314]Mike this is correct. The ship on position N07' 41.530'' E98' 15.570'' is the HMS Squirrel, sunk on July 24th 1945. Her sister ship, the HMS Vestal sunk two days later around 3 miles south of the Squirrel. For what it's worth I think you did the right thing. A 100% postive ID is worth it. My Uncle Arthur who was present on HMS Nelson when both ships were sunk , got it the wrong way round! At least there will no mistake now. I've never had the chance to dive the Vestal, we passed over the site late at night 3 years when we bought the Trident so missed out - saw her on the sounder , though. I know if we ever take anything from Lagarto, we'll be hung by the USN, you're right, Mike. They even got a little miffed when we mentioned removing nets, but seeing as our loyal group of Lagarto families requested it, we did it anyway. oops. Have Deep Blue Divers forgiven MV Trident yet? hope so! Jamie MV Trident
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4th May 2008, 18:12	#20 (permalink)
trimix New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada Posts: 46	Re: The formal handing-over of the ship's bell of the HMS Vestal Its always fun to find a bell or ID a lost ship, Ive been involved with a few discoveries myself - but lets be clear the Navies dont want you disturbing their wrecks and dont want you bringing the bells up. I agree 100% + with these sentiments. I just posted a big reply to a member regarding the recent trip to the Gulf of Thailand, where a number of 'artifacts' were brought up - no offense was intended, but I hope as a technical diving community we can be respectful and protective of these rare treasures that only we have the prividelge to be able to see for ourselves. The more we take away from the wrecks, the less remains for us and our buddies to see in the future. The 1970's are over, fellas. Leave it on the bottom where it will actually be of value to us all. Kudos to you guys for reporting the find to the Navy -very honorable of you. Sending greenies... __________________ *BOOM!*
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