Spree Expeditions: Rebreathers on livaboard dive boat sport trips

DaveC · 10th November 2006, 15:14

The kind of restriction seems to be showing up more and more now that CC diving is becoming more popular. I believe there was a issue with the Odessy live aboards in the Truk area awhile ago and now this one. Working on a Rebreather in a open area like the swim platform is just asking for problems, especially in rolling water. Sounds like some folks are trying to conform to this charter operators rules and yes, his boat, his rules I agree. I think its a case if thats the way it is, then simply don't use them.

Just my 2 cents.

Crazyduck · 10th November 2006, 15:59

I get the feeling that this something new and it’s just a matter of working out the bugs.
So know it’s a transition issue.

Spill containment units can be purchased cheap.
Once we show how we keep the units off his deck, and away from the OC units- problems solved. Put the spill unit on the back deck and sweep up the excess and dump it into a sealable bucket, problem solved.

Unfortunately, a lot of this was precipitated by a prior accident. If we could get a few locals diving the boat and showing we can be responsible then we can work out the kinks. This is in my backyard and one of my better options.
Hence my willingness to really work on this.
Andrew

PacketSniffer · 12th November 2006, 21:17

Rigdiver and myself had the opportunity to catch up with Capt. Frank on the floor at DEMA to get some clarification of the policies. I have permission to regurgitate our discussion (...the best I can).

Modifications
The intent here is to not allow units that are "duct taped" together or heavily modified to the point that they are not safe (i.e., 80cf tanks on Draegar). Unfortunately, there is a hard ruling on home-built units. At this point in time, they are not allowed. Only OEM units are allowed. Permissible modifications to OEM units include such things as: travel frames, 4th cell add-ons, BOVs, swap from Air2 to standard reg, Shearwater Meg, Shearwater KISS, larger tanks on units that are designed for it, etc. The components included in the modification should come from insured manufacturers. This means they do not want to see home made: BOVs, O2 cells, regulators, BCs, cylinders, electronics, etc.

Gas
Capt. Frank understands a booster is necessary for the CCR divers. He's actively looking for a unit that can be used on the deck. On the sport(or rec) trips (which is what we are discussing), there will be no use of Trimix, Heliox, or any other diluent but Air/Nitrox.

Dive Time
Some have mentioned that OC and CCR divers will run different profiles. Remember, on the MV Spree (and MV Fling) for sport trips, there is a 130fsw limit on your first dive of the day. All dives after your first dive can go to a max of 100fsw. Total run time is to be right around 60 minutes. I don't believe you'll get beat on deck with a leather bull whip for coming up with 65 minutes. However, at a 90 minute run time, you might question whether its worth getting back on the boat.

You can spend as much time at the bottom as you wish provided you are back in an hour and you don't inccur any mandatory deco obligation. Mostly, the one hour run time is to keep everyone on schedule. There is a 2.5 hour surface interval required for all divers starting from the last person back onboard. So, he doesn't want to let the CCR divers get the schedule all out of whack. Please consider the DMs need to eat and rest a bit too from servicing two dozen divers

OC Bailout
Bring sufficient bailout to bring you or your OC/CC buddy back to the surface. If that means you need offboard cylinders, you can BYOB (Bring Your Own Bottles

) or I *think* you might be able to rent from the MV Spree or maybe they would come with the package. We didn't discuss these otions so the answer is not available for me to print. But, I believe you probably could have access to cylinders since they have lots. Although they are all AL80s. As they move forward, this would get worked out I'm sure.

Onboard Cylinders
Capt. Frank is in the process of procuring cylinders so long haul travelers wouldn't need to worry about lugging cylinders. Even in the short term, he has access to a limited number of cylinders for the Inspiration.

Scrubber Refilling
There is some thought of allowing this process to take place on the far back deck in lieu of the swim platform. The only concern is wind sweeping absorbent dust around.

I have written everything the best I can from memory. I'm sure I'll be corrected by Capt. Frank if it's inaccurate. If you are serious about booking on one of the sport trips with your rebreather, give Capt. Frank a call to discuss your particular issues. He's a very reasonable guy to talk with. You can find him here.

Remember, the tech trips are almost unlimited (2.5 hour run time). So, if you don't like the rules on the sport/rec trips, by all means sign up for one of the tech trips. Those are over deeper waters anyway and are set up specifically to allow the rebreather diver to unleash the full potential of his/her unit.

If you have a group of divers and want to book the boat for yourself to exclude "knuckleheads", you can do that as well and call your own destination.

PacketSniffer · 15th January 2007, 02:05

The policy has been published for the 2007 diving season.

Spree Expeditions: Rebreather Sport Diving Policies

Gobfish1 · 15th January 2007, 16:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by PacketSniffer)

The policy has been published for the 2007 diving season.

Spree Expeditions: Rebreather Sport Diving Policies

This out fit would last about 5mins in the uk ,

Crazyduck · 15th January 2007, 17:12

Unfortunately, the litigious society here and growth is slower.
So what is acceptable in the UK will not fly here.
People that I speak with are amazed by the paperwork that we generate here verses in other places.
However, this does limit the liability of the boat and provides us access for rebreather divers.

Plus, the boat does two tech trips a year where you can dive whatever profiles you would like. That is if they do not get blown out.

This is a change for the better and they are willing to listen and grow with the community- that I am grateful for.

I have dove with this outfit and they are first rate.

Please do not compare this to what files in the UK.
It is a different environment, different laws and it is degrading to those of us that are trying to open up the boat for access.

Have a nice afternoon, Andrew

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1)

This out fit would last about 5mins in the uk ,

Gobfish1 · 15th January 2007, 18:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by Crazyduck)

Unfortunately, the litigious society here and growth is slower.
So what is acceptable in the UK will not fly here.
People that I speak with are amazed by the paperwork that we generate here verses in other places.
However, this does limit the liability of the boat and provides us access for rebreather divers.

Plus, the boat does two tech trips a year where you can dive whatever profiles you would like. That is if they do not get blown out.

This is a change for the better and they are willing to listen and grow with the community- that I am grateful for.

I have dove with this outfit and they are first rate.

Please do not compare this to what files in the UK.
It is a different environment, different laws and it is degrading to those of us that are trying to open up the boat for access.

Have a nice afternoon, Andrew

Hi Andrew
Hope you get to open up your boat access, soon ,
two tech trips a year were you can dive the profile you want,
sound s like you have your work cut out,

Good luck

Genesis · 15th January 2007, 18:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Crazyduck)

Unfortunately, the litigious society here and growth is slower.
So what is acceptable in the UK will not fly here.
People that I speak with are amazed by the paperwork that we generate here verses in other places.
However, this does limit the liability of the boat and provides us access for rebreather divers.

Then fix the law.

Florida has. Case law in Florida is that a diving release is absolutely enforceable. End of discussion, full-stop.

I've posted the cite before here and will again if it helps. Arguments that this is "about liability" - in Florida at least - are vacuous.

It is, in fact, about control, although you hear this BS about "liability" here in Florida all the time. Sorry, nope - the Florida Court of Appeals says "no it ain't" - end of discussion.

Now Texas may not be the same, but if that's the case, then fix the problem instead of applying band-aids to a sucking chest wound.

Crazyduck · 15th January 2007, 18:45

Yep, we have an insane amount of barriers and limitations.

One of our problems is that the boat had an accident and it has made the process worse than normal. So now we have to deal with containment issues for blown scrubber and how to work within their envelope of their acceptable limits.

I am sorry if I came off a little harsh but it has been hard work and some people cruise these boards looking for reasons to inhibit the growth process.

Not to mention this is one of the few good size boats that makes it out to the gardens. 110 miles off shore, 60 ft floor to the tie in, 80 degree water temp, and lots of incredible life. Hammerheads in the spring, occasional interesting sharks, mantas, lots cool stuff.

Now we just need to keep our noses clean and things will be looking good.

Andrew

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1)

Hi Andrew
Hope you get to open up your boat access, soon ,
two tech trips a year were you can dive the profile you want,
sound s like you have your work cut out,

Good luck

Gobfish1 · 15th January 2007, 18:52

Dive Time
Some have mentioned that OC and CCR divers will run different profiles. Remember, on the MV Spree (and MV Fling) for sport trips, there is a 130fsw limit on your first dive of the day. All dives after your first dive can go to a max of 100fsw. Total run time is to be right around 60 minutes. I don't believe you'll get beat on deck with a leather bull whip for coming up with 65 minutes. However, at a 90 minute run time, you might question whether its worth getting back on

Putting up with the above on a dive trip just makes a rod for your own back s
Sport divers can dive to 50m with deco, in the UK
We don’t class this as tec diving , and if we wanted to do that twice a day we would be able to,
Sounds to me like there is to much already written in stone for you ever to be able to enjoy diving ccr, .

10th November 2006, 15:14	#21 (permalink)
DaveC New Member Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ontario. Canada Posts: 192	Re: Spree Expeditions: Rebreathers on livaboard dive boat sport trips The kind of restriction seems to be showing up more and more now that CC diving is becoming more popular. I believe there was a issue with the Odessy live aboards in the Truk area awhile ago and now this one. Working on a Rebreather in a open area like the swim platform is just asking for problems, especially in rolling water. Sounds like some folks are trying to conform to this charter operators rules and yes, his boat, his rules I agree. I think its a case if thats the way it is, then simply don't use them. Just my 2 cents. __________________ Dave Any day in the water is better then any day in the office.
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10th November 2006, 15:59	#22 (permalink)
Crazyduck Underwater Mechanic Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TEXAS, Dallas/ Ft.Worth Posts: 718	Re: Spree Expeditions: Rebreathers on livaboard dive boat sport trips I get the feeling that this something new and it’s just a matter of working out the bugs. So know it’s a transition issue. Spill containment units can be purchased cheap. Once we show how we keep the units off his deck, and away from the OC units- problems solved. Put the spill unit on the back deck and sweep up the excess and dump it into a sealable bucket, problem solved. Unfortunately, a lot of this was precipitated by a prior accident. If we could get a few locals diving the boat and showing we can be responsible then we can work out the kinks. This is in my backyard and one of my better options. Hence my willingness to really work on this. Andrew __________________ Howdy Senor- What’s Happening! Rob Davie April 2005- Presently in a state of transition from Open Circuit to Closed Circuit. "You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by it." - Buddha.
(Online)

12th November 2006, 21:17	#23 (permalink)
PacketSniffer ~~~~~ #417 ~~~~~ Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 437	Update and Further Clarification Rigdiver and myself had the opportunity to catch up with Capt. Frank on the floor at DEMA to get some clarification of the policies. I have permission to regurgitate our discussion (...the best I can). Modifications The intent here is to not allow units that are "duct taped" together or heavily modified to the point that they are not safe (i.e., 80cf tanks on Draegar). Unfortunately, there is a hard ruling on home-built units. At this point in time, they are not allowed. Only OEM units are allowed. Permissible modifications to OEM units include such things as: travel frames, 4th cell add-ons, BOVs, swap from Air2 to standard reg, Shearwater Meg, Shearwater KISS, larger tanks on units that are designed for it, etc. The components included in the modification should come from insured manufacturers. This means they do not want to see home made: BOVs, O2 cells, regulators, BCs, cylinders, electronics, etc. Gas Capt. Frank understands a booster is necessary for the CCR divers. He's actively looking for a unit that can be used on the deck. On the sport(or rec) trips (which is what we are discussing), there will be no use of Trimix, Heliox, or any other diluent but Air/Nitrox. Dive Time Some have mentioned that OC and CCR divers will run different profiles. Remember, on the MV Spree (and MV Fling) for sport trips, there is a 130fsw limit on your first dive of the day. All dives after your first dive can go to a max of 100fsw. Total run time is to be right around 60 minutes. I don't believe you'll get beat on deck with a leather bull whip for coming up with 65 minutes. However, at a 90 minute run time, you might question whether its worth getting back on the boat. You can spend as much time at the bottom as you wish provided you are back in an hour and you don't inccur any mandatory deco obligation. Mostly, the one hour run time is to keep everyone on schedule. There is a 2.5 hour surface interval required for all divers starting from the last person back onboard. So, he doesn't want to let the CCR divers get the schedule all out of whack. Please consider the DMs need to eat and rest a bit too from servicing two dozen divers OC Bailout Bring sufficient bailout to bring you or your OC/CC buddy back to the surface. If that means you need offboard cylinders, you can BYOB (Bring Your Own Bottles ) or I think you might be able to rent from the MV Spree or maybe they would come with the package. We didn't discuss these otions so the answer is not available for me to print. But, I believe you probably could have access to cylinders since they have lots. Although they are all AL80s. As they move forward, this would get worked out I'm sure. Onboard Cylinders Capt. Frank is in the process of procuring cylinders so long haul travelers wouldn't need to worry about lugging cylinders. Even in the short term, he has access to a limited number of cylinders for the Inspiration. Scrubber Refilling There is some thought of allowing this process to take place on the far back deck in lieu of the swim platform. The only concern is wind sweeping absorbent dust around. I have written everything the best I can from memory. I'm sure I'll be corrected by Capt. Frank if it's inaccurate. If you are serious about booking on one of the sport trips with your rebreather, give Capt. Frank a call to discuss your particular issues. He's a very reasonable guy to talk with. You can find him here. Remember, the tech trips are almost unlimited (2.5 hour run time). So, if you don't like the rules on the sport/rec trips, by all means sign up for one of the tech trips. Those are over deeper waters anyway and are set up specifically to allow the rebreather diver to unleash the full potential of his/her unit. If you have a group of divers and want to book the boat for yourself to exclude "knuckleheads", you can do that as well and call your own destination. __________________ Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory or defeat. Last edited by PacketSniffer : 12th November 2006 at 21:25.
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15th January 2007, 02:05	#24 (permalink)
PacketSniffer ~~~~~ #417 ~~~~~ Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 437	Conclusion The policy has been published for the 2007 diving season. Spree Expeditions: Rebreather Sport Diving Policies __________________ Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory or defeat.
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15th January 2007, 16:34	#25 (permalink)
Gobfish1 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 396	Re: Conclusion Quote: (Originally Posted by PacketSniffer) The policy has been published for the 2007 diving season. Spree Expeditions: Rebreather Sport Diving Policies This out fit would last about 5mins in the uk , __________________ Steve G Apparently not the only gay diver in the village http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/o...nzee-glock.gif http://www.scubatunes.com/audio/vol01/mp3/HiTech.mp3
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15th January 2007, 17:12	#26 (permalink)
Crazyduck Underwater Mechanic Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TEXAS, Dallas/ Ft.Worth Posts: 718	Unfortunately, the litigious society here and growth is slower. So what is acceptable in the UK will not fly here. People that I speak with are amazed by the paperwork that we generate here verses in other places. However, this does limit the liability of the boat and provides us access for rebreather divers. Plus, the boat does two tech trips a year where you can dive whatever profiles you would like. That is if they do not get blown out. This is a change for the better and they are willing to listen and grow with the community- that I am grateful for. I have dove with this outfit and they are first rate. Please do not compare this to what files in the UK. It is a different environment, different laws and it is degrading to those of us that are trying to open up the boat for access. Have a nice afternoon, Andrew Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1) This out fit would last about 5mins in the uk , __________________ Howdy Senor- What’s Happening! Rob Davie April 2005- Presently in a state of transition from Open Circuit to Closed Circuit. "You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by it." - Buddha.
(Online)

15th January 2007, 18:18	#27 (permalink)
Gobfish1 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 396	Re: Spree Expeditions: Rebreathers on livaboard dive boat sport trips Quote: (Originally Posted by Crazyduck) Unfortunately, the litigious society here and growth is slower. So what is acceptable in the UK will not fly here. People that I speak with are amazed by the paperwork that we generate here verses in other places. However, this does limit the liability of the boat and provides us access for rebreather divers. Plus, the boat does two tech trips a year where you can dive whatever profiles you would like. That is if they do not get blown out. This is a change for the better and they are willing to listen and grow with the community- that I am grateful for. I have dove with this outfit and they are first rate. Please do not compare this to what files in the UK. It is a different environment, different laws and it is degrading to those of us that are trying to open up the boat for access. Have a nice afternoon, Andrew Hi Andrew Hope you get to open up your boat access, soon , two tech trips a year were you can dive the profile you want, sound s like you have your work cut out, Good luck __________________ Steve G Apparently not the only gay diver in the village http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/o...nzee-glock.gif http://www.scubatunes.com/audio/vol01/mp3/HiTech.mp3
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15th January 2007, 18:33	#28 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: Spree Expeditions: Rebreathers on livaboard dive boat sport trips Quote: (Originally Posted by Crazyduck) Unfortunately, the litigious society here and growth is slower. So what is acceptable in the UK will not fly here. People that I speak with are amazed by the paperwork that we generate here verses in other places. However, this does limit the liability of the boat and provides us access for rebreather divers. Then fix the law. Florida has. Case law in Florida is that a diving release is absolutely enforceable. End of discussion, full-stop. I've posted the cite before here and will again if it helps. Arguments that this is "about liability" - in Florida at least - are vacuous. It is, in fact, about control, although you hear this BS about "liability" here in Florida all the time. Sorry, nope - the Florida Court of Appeals says "no it ain't" - end of discussion. Now Texas may not be the same, but if that's the case, then fix the problem instead of applying band-aids to a sucking chest wound. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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15th January 2007, 18:45	#29 (permalink)
Crazyduck Underwater Mechanic Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TEXAS, Dallas/ Ft.Worth Posts: 718	Re: Spree Expeditions: Rebreathers on livaboard dive boat sport trips Yep, we have an insane amount of barriers and limitations. One of our problems is that the boat had an accident and it has made the process worse than normal. So now we have to deal with containment issues for blown scrubber and how to work within their envelope of their acceptable limits. I am sorry if I came off a little harsh but it has been hard work and some people cruise these boards looking for reasons to inhibit the growth process. Not to mention this is one of the few good size boats that makes it out to the gardens. 110 miles off shore, 60 ft floor to the tie in, 80 degree water temp, and lots of incredible life. Hammerheads in the spring, occasional interesting sharks, mantas, lots cool stuff. Now we just need to keep our noses clean and things will be looking good. Andrew Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1) Hi Andrew Hope you get to open up your boat access, soon , two tech trips a year were you can dive the profile you want, sound s like you have your work cut out, Good luck __________________ Howdy Senor- What’s Happening! Rob Davie April 2005- Presently in a state of transition from Open Circuit to Closed Circuit. "You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by it." - Buddha.
(Online)

15th January 2007, 18:52	#30 (permalink)
Gobfish1 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 396	Re: Spree Expeditions: Rebreathers on livaboard dive boat sport trips Dive Time Some have mentioned that OC and CCR divers will run different profiles. Remember, on the MV Spree (and MV Fling) for sport trips, there is a 130fsw limit on your first dive of the day. All dives after your first dive can go to a max of 100fsw. Total run time is to be right around 60 minutes. I don't believe you'll get beat on deck with a leather bull whip for coming up with 65 minutes. However, at a 90 minute run time, you might question whether its worth getting back on Putting up with the above on a dive trip just makes a rod for your own back s Sport divers can dive to 50m with deco, in the UK We don’t class this as tec diving , and if we wanted to do that twice a day we would be able to, Sounds to me like there is to much already written in stone for you ever to be able to enjoy diving ccr, . __________________ Steve G Apparently not the only gay diver in the village http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/o...nzee-glock.gif http://www.scubatunes.com/audio/vol01/mp3/HiTech.mp3
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