Cost to get a fill

zoo_diver · 22nd August 2008, 10:40

Even if you fill your own bottles or get free air, please participate.

For one reason or another, I can't do my own gas at home right now and have been shocked at the response from businesses that are charging out the yin-yang to get bottles topped and filled.

Are you paying one time and getting all the gas you need, or do you pay per fil? Or do you pay per cu ft of gas you need? (if O2 is .25 /cu ft, and you need 4, do they charge $1 Do they charge a flat fee for what you are getting filled (ex. an air fill is $8 regardless of how much you need -- O2 is a flat rate per bottle size...if you are filling a 13 and O2 is .25 / cu ft your cost is $3.25)

**PhilSiswick** · 22nd August 2008, 10:55

In my experience (in the UK), it's a mix.

Shops: Some places charge a flat fee, regardless of start and end pressures, so if you only want a top up, you end up paying for a whole fill, regardless of the pathetic pressure they can give you. Others (the better ones) charge by free litre. Pretty universally, air fills seem to be by cylinder size.

Boats: The few boats in the UK that I've used that provide gas have charged by free litre for O2 and He, with air being free.

Hope that helps some.

Cheers,

bletso · 22nd August 2008, 11:27

I charge by the cf/ltr for anything other than air. Flat rate for cylinder size for air.

Even so, filling is a loss leader. My time and equipment costs are not covered. A shop's expenses are hard to meet unless you are a real volume supplier.

When you fill small bottles it is even worse. (Rebreather divers) It takes almost as much time to fill a 45cf as it does a set of doubles for mix.

Dale

chrismc · 22nd August 2008, 11:42

Always depends on the shop, as discussed I expect most shops are making a loss so I dont mind apying a bit more as long as its reasonable.

However I once paid to have 220 bar of He only in a 10l for £44. They then filled it to 170 with their booster. Bet they cleared a profit on that!

Having done my gas blender, I can sympathise with being being asked to top up 130bar of 16/30 to 13/60 in a 2l cylinder for someone who is paying for the gas itself. It costs more in time than its worth.

One idea that I'd like to see implmented is a shop, would be fill your own. Basically pay a flat fee for upto x amount, then you can call in the shop, fill your own. This would reduce the time from the owner, although ensuring everyone was properly trained could be difficult.

Dutchy · 22nd August 2008, 12:06

quote=bletso;204627]When you fill small bottles it is even worse. (Rebreather divers) It takes almost as much time to fill a 45cf as it does a set of doubles for mix.[/quote]My LDS now has a surcharge of approx $5 for anything under 7l. Unfortunately that's equally true when only 140 Bar is available. I understand it is necessary to cover costs but doesn't make me happy

**PhilSiswick** · 22nd August 2008, 12:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by chrismc)

Always depends on the shop, as discussed I expect most shops are making a loss so I dont mind apying a bit more as long as its reasonable.

However I once paid to have 220 bar of He only in a 10l for £44. They then filled it to 170 with their booster. Bet they cleared a profit on that!

Having done my gas blender, I can sympathise with being being asked to top up 130bar of 16/30 to 13/60 in a 2l cylinder for someone who is paying for the gas itself. It costs more in time than its worth.

One idea that I'd like to see implmented is a shop, would be fill your own. Basically pay a flat fee for upto x amount, then you can call in the shop, fill your own. This would reduce the time from the owner, although ensuring everyone was properly trained could be difficult.

You're absolutely right - there doesn't seem to be any profit in providing gas, especially for shops inland, which must get relatively little business. Having seen most of my local options fold in the last few years, I'm painfully aware that nickel and diming a shop on gas costs is penny wise and pound foolish in the long run (enough cliches ;-). Until I changed jobs, my most local option for mix was an 160 mile trip (80 miles there and back to leave the cylinder and 80 miles there and back to collect it again). High pressure O2 is but a dream.

My only gripe is that often, I'm asked to pay 7, 8 or 9 quid for a 2l O2 fill and I get 2 or 3 quid of gas for that, as I went in with 90 bar and only got 160 bar back (plus, their tariff only covers 3l and 7l cylinders, so I pay for a 220 bar 3l, whatever I really get).

I'm happy to pay the real costs of the fill, including the overheads, but I want to know that I'm getting what I'm paying for. I'll go to a shop that charges a bit more per litre of gas, but charges me for the gas that I actually get. Luckily, I've found one locally to my new job. I don't want a loss leader - I want a local shop that I know makes enough money so that they are still there x years in the future. Might be obvious, but I've found you can't buy O2 and mix on the internet ;-)

Cheers,

***jradomski*** · 22nd August 2008, 12:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by zoo_diver)

Even if you fill your own bottles or get free air, please participate.

For one reason or another, I can't do my own gas at home right now and have been shocked at the response from businesses that are charging out the yin-yang to get bottles topped and filled.

Are you paying one time and getting all the gas you need, or do you pay per fil? Or do you pay per cu ft of gas you need? (if O2 is .25 /cu ft, and you need 4, do they charge $1 Do they charge a flat fee for what you are getting filled (ex. an air fill is $8 regardless of how much you need -- O2 is a flat rate per bottle size...if you are filling a 13 and O2 is .25 / cu ft your cost is $3.25)

for rebreather bottles, I currently charge $5 per bottle plus some fee per cu ft depending on the gas.. I will probably switch to a flat fee of something like $20 per o2 fill, since electric costs are getting out of hand and gas prices have been rising.. (UHP 5.0 helium now costs me over $250 a cylinder (over $400 for most local customers), and I have been told to expect another raise).. Thats over $1 per cuft! Even high purity and zero gas are around $300 a K.

The above doesnt even include delievery and rental fees..

Air fills are charged a flat fee.. $6 for anything up to 40 cuft..

Doing o2 fills right wastes gas.. I use more than a few cuft of gas just to flush the system (manifold whips and booster) before filling a specific gas..

Ben Field · 22nd August 2008, 12:32

I pay £6 or £9 for an O2 fill depending if it goes "on the booster" luckily at my LDS that means either 200bar or "Very Good" pressure off the booster, suffice to say I can finish a weekend diving and still have higher O2 pressure than most OC guys dream of a start pressure!

I have noticed air and gas fills rising, I've assumed down to transport and electrickery costs, £5 for air in a 15ltr recently bought this home...

I have myself 2 O2 bottles and a Twinset to top the Diluent off (which can be shared with 2-3others) this will easily do a week or more for £40 or there abouts.

The big issue is distance... there are now so few dive shops and even less with boosters and mix that the fuel costs bite into getting fills even more than the transportation costs of the gas to the store. I generally time my LDS visits to when the missus wants to go shopping so at least the trip kills two birds with one stone.

Arkwright · 22nd August 2008, 12:56

We charge by the free litre for both helium and oxygen, at 1.2p for O2 and 1.8p for He.

A standard cost for air, from £2 for a 3L to £3.50 for a 15L.

We use a booster pump so can top off O2, trimix and nitrox.

Pumping gas just about covers the cost, we continue to do it because I need it to go diving.

Phil

maayanh · 22nd August 2008, 14:00

around here it's
about
5$ per tank air (twinset*2)
8$ per tank nitrox
5 us-cents per Lt He (no extra charge for the reminder of the tank)

View Poll Results: Typical Fill Costs
Flat fee to get as much air as you need, like a card or all the air you need over the weekend	3	7.14%
By the cu ft as required. If O2 is .25 a cu ft and you need 4, it'll cost you a buck	20	47.62%
Flat rates regardless of the volume actually required	19	45.24%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

22nd August 2008, 10:40	#1 (permalink)
zoo_diver Is it snack time yet? Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Suffolk, VA Posts: 259	Cost to get a fill Even if you fill your own bottles or get free air, please participate. For one reason or another, I can't do my own gas at home right now and have been shocked at the response from businesses that are charging out the yin-yang to get bottles topped and filled. Are you paying one time and getting all the gas you need, or do you pay per fil? Or do you pay per cu ft of gas you need? (if O2 is .25 /cu ft, and you need 4, do they charge $1 Do they charge a flat fee for what you are getting filled (ex. an air fill is $8 regardless of how much you need -- O2 is a flat rate per bottle size...if you are filling a 13 and O2 is .25 / cu ft your cost is $3.25)
(Offline)

22nd August 2008, 10:55	#2 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,092	Re: Cost to get a fill In my experience (in the UK), it's a mix. Shops: Some places charge a flat fee, regardless of start and end pressures, so if you only want a top up, you end up paying for a whole fill, regardless of the pathetic pressure they can give you. Others (the better ones) charge by free litre. Pretty universally, air fills seem to be by cylinder size. Boats: The few boats in the UK that I've used that provide gas have charged by free litre for O2 and He, with air being free. Hope that helps some. Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
(Offline)

22nd August 2008, 11:27	#3 (permalink)
bletso An independent diver. Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 263	Re: Cost to get a fill I charge by the cf/ltr for anything other than air. Flat rate for cylinder size for air. Even so, filling is a loss leader. My time and equipment costs are not covered. A shop's expenses are hard to meet unless you are a real volume supplier. When you fill small bottles it is even worse. (Rebreather divers) It takes almost as much time to fill a 45cf as it does a set of doubles for mix. Dale
(Offline)

22nd August 2008, 11:42	#4 (permalink)
chrismc New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: North west, uk Posts: 61	Re: Cost to get a fill Always depends on the shop, as discussed I expect most shops are making a loss so I dont mind apying a bit more as long as its reasonable. However I once paid to have 220 bar of He only in a 10l for £44. They then filled it to 170 with their booster. Bet they cleared a profit on that! Having done my gas blender, I can sympathise with being being asked to top up 130bar of 16/30 to 13/60 in a 2l cylinder for someone who is paying for the gas itself. It costs more in time than its worth. One idea that I'd like to see implmented is a shop, would be fill your own. Basically pay a flat fee for upto x amount, then you can call in the shop, fill your own. This would reduce the time from the owner, although ensuring everyone was properly trained could be difficult.
(Offline)

22nd August 2008, 12:06	#5 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 841	Re: Cost to get a fill quote=bletso;204627]When you fill small bottles it is even worse. (Rebreather divers) It takes almost as much time to fill a 45cf as it does a set of doubles for mix.[/quote]My LDS now has a surcharge of approx $5 for anything under 7l. Unfortunately that's equally true when only 140 Bar is available. I understand it is necessary to cover costs but doesn't make me happy __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
(Offline)

22nd August 2008, 12:09	#6 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,092	Re: Cost to get a fill Quote: (Originally Posted by chrismc) Always depends on the shop, as discussed I expect most shops are making a loss so I dont mind apying a bit more as long as its reasonable. However I once paid to have 220 bar of He only in a 10l for £44. They then filled it to 170 with their booster. Bet they cleared a profit on that! Having done my gas blender, I can sympathise with being being asked to top up 130bar of 16/30 to 13/60 in a 2l cylinder for someone who is paying for the gas itself. It costs more in time than its worth. One idea that I'd like to see implmented is a shop, would be fill your own. Basically pay a flat fee for upto x amount, then you can call in the shop, fill your own. This would reduce the time from the owner, although ensuring everyone was properly trained could be difficult. You're absolutely right - there doesn't seem to be any profit in providing gas, especially for shops inland, which must get relatively little business. Having seen most of my local options fold in the last few years, I'm painfully aware that nickel and diming a shop on gas costs is penny wise and pound foolish in the long run (enough cliches ;-). Until I changed jobs, my most local option for mix was an 160 mile trip (80 miles there and back to leave the cylinder and 80 miles there and back to collect it again). High pressure O2 is but a dream. My only gripe is that often, I'm asked to pay 7, 8 or 9 quid for a 2l O2 fill and I get 2 or 3 quid of gas for that, as I went in with 90 bar and only got 160 bar back (plus, their tariff only covers 3l and 7l cylinders, so I pay for a 220 bar 3l, whatever I really get). I'm happy to pay the real costs of the fill, including the overheads, but I want to know that I'm getting what I'm paying for. I'll go to a shop that charges a bit more per litre of gas, but charges me for the gas that I actually get. Luckily, I've found one locally to my new job. I don't want a loss leader - I want a local shop that I know makes enough money so that they are still there x years in the future. Might be obvious, but I've found you can't buy O2 and mix on the internet ;-) Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
(Offline)

22nd August 2008, 12:17	#7 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,111	Re: Cost to get a fill Quote: (Originally Posted by zoo_diver) Even if you fill your own bottles or get free air, please participate. For one reason or another, I can't do my own gas at home right now and have been shocked at the response from businesses that are charging out the yin-yang to get bottles topped and filled. Are you paying one time and getting all the gas you need, or do you pay per fil? Or do you pay per cu ft of gas you need? (if O2 is .25 /cu ft, and you need 4, do they charge $1 Do they charge a flat fee for what you are getting filled (ex. an air fill is $8 regardless of how much you need -- O2 is a flat rate per bottle size...if you are filling a 13 and O2 is .25 / cu ft your cost is $3.25) for rebreather bottles, I currently charge $5 per bottle plus some fee per cu ft depending on the gas.. I will probably switch to a flat fee of something like $20 per o2 fill, since electric costs are getting out of hand and gas prices have been rising.. (UHP 5.0 helium now costs me over $250 a cylinder (over $400 for most local customers), and I have been told to expect another raise).. Thats over $1 per cuft! Even high purity and zero gas are around $300 a K. The above doesnt even include delievery and rental fees.. Air fills are charged a flat fee.. $6 for anything up to 40 cuft.. Doing o2 fills right wastes gas.. I use more than a few cuft of gas just to flush the system (manifold whips and booster) before filling a specific gas.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 22nd August 2008 at 12:20.
(Offline)

22nd August 2008, 12:32	#8 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,771	Re: Cost to get a fill I pay £6 or £9 for an O2 fill depending if it goes "on the booster" luckily at my LDS that means either 200bar or "Very Good" pressure off the booster, suffice to say I can finish a weekend diving and still have higher O2 pressure than most OC guys dream of a start pressure! I have noticed air and gas fills rising, I've assumed down to transport and electrickery costs, £5 for air in a 15ltr recently bought this home... I have myself 2 O2 bottles and a Twinset to top the Diluent off (which can be shared with 2-3others) this will easily do a week or more for £40 or there abouts. The big issue is distance... there are now so few dive shops and even less with boosters and mix that the fuel costs bite into getting fills even more than the transportation costs of the gas to the store. I generally time my LDS visits to when the missus wants to go shopping so at least the trip kills two birds with one stone. __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
(Online)

22nd August 2008, 12:56	#9 (permalink)
Arkwright RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Cottesbrooke, UK Posts: 28	Re: Cost to get a fill We charge by the free litre for both helium and oxygen, at 1.2p for O2 and 1.8p for He. A standard cost for air, from £2 for a 3L to £3.50 for a 15L. We use a booster pump so can top off O2, trimix and nitrox. Pumping gas just about covers the cost, we continue to do it because I need it to go diving. Phil __________________ Cottesbrooke Diving Services www.scubagear.co.uk
(Offline)

22nd August 2008, 14:00	#10 (permalink)
maayanh New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Not Bought Yet Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 24	Re: Cost to get a fill around here it's about 5$ per tank air (twinset*2) 8$ per tank nitrox 5 us-cents per Lt He (no extra charge for the reminder of the tank)
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode