Rebreather Training ----> Certification

***schford*** · 9th December 2006, 18:37

With training as well as giving you the skills to stay alive what one is aiming for is a certification which states that a user has a level of competance that enables manufactures, boat operators, resort destinations etc to feel confident that said user is not going to kill themselves and thereby cause them upset, hassle, bad PR or even cost them money in court.

Now currently the only way to get said certification is to do a course, however we recognise that all sorts of training goes on and individuals learn in different ways, mentoring, e-learning, discussion, courses etc

Part of the business I run for my day job involves delivering training for Procurment, Project Management and ILS.

The approach we are now adopting is recognising that a one size fits all sheep dunk course is out of date, expensive and wasteful.

We now provide an upfront assesment to identify the candidates level of knowledge and then provide him the right level and combination of e-learning and classroom based learning before sitting his exam.

Incidentally - the level of people that do without classroom training all together (our equivelant of in water training) is minimal.

Now if we were to roll out this approach to Rebreather training one could imagine a much greater mix of e-learning, discussion and in water training taking place - with the aim being to pass an exam to gain your certification, which would be both written for theory, in water to establish skills competancy and practical to demonstrate a level of mastery of setting up and mainting your equipment.

Your actual mix of training would depend on how you did with your initial assesment.

Perhaps I should set up some basic e-learning and testing on Rebreather theory on RBW to establish whether this approach would be beneficial, we can then expand to include some unit practicals. If that went well we would then need to consider the next steps.

I should also point out that I would not imagine the cost of training changing that much as the instructors need to earn a living - but perhaps you would get more bang for your buck as it were.

Thoughts?

Stuart

dive2dive2000 · 9th December 2006, 18:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

With training as well as giving you the skills to stay alive what one is aiming for is a certification which states that a user has a level of competance that enables manufactures, boat operators, resort destinations etc to feel confident that said user is not going to kill themselves and thereby cause them upset, hassle, bad PR or even cost them money in court.

Now currently the only way to get said certification is to do a course, however we recognise that all sorts of training goes on and individuals learn in different ways, mentoring, e-learning, discussion, courses etc

Part of the business I run for my day job involves delivering training for Procurment, Project Management and ILS.

The approach we are now adopting is recognising that a one size fits all sheep dunk course is out of date, expensive and wasteful.

We now provide an upfront assesment to identify the candidates level of knowledge and then provide him the right level and combination of e-learning and classroom based learning before sitting his exam.

Incidentally - the level of people that do without classroom training all together (our equivelant of in water training) is minimal.

Now if we were to roll out this approach to Rebreather training one could imagine a much greater mix of e-learning, discussion and in water training taking place - with the aim being to pass an exam to gain your certification, which would be both written for theory, in water to establish skills competancy and practical to demonstrate a level of mastery of setting up and mainting your equipment.

Your actual mix of training would depend on how you did with your initial assesment.

Perhaps I should set up some basic e-learning and testing on Rebreather theory on RBW to establish whether this approach would be beneficial, we can then expand to include some unit practicals. If that went well we would then need to consider the next steps.

I should also point out that I would not imagine the cost of training changing that much as the instructors need to earn a living - but perhaps you would get more bang for your buck as it were.

Thoughts?

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

I feel RBW already does this!

I think it is a good idea but you would need instructor endorsement, If I were an instructor I would only recognize and recommend material that I approved of. Example Mastering Rebreather's was recommended reading prior to my CCR course.

Mixaddict · 9th December 2006, 19:45

Stuart,

In order for the RBW site training program to have any respectability, ie. certs that are accepted by boats, resorts, gate keepers etc., it would have to be endorsed and recognized by the international community as having pretty much the same level of standards as the competition (TDI, IANTD, etc. etc.)

Additionally, you would have to in some way deal with the liability issues, which are not to be trivialized, (much to the chagrin of certain long winded people who have been posting the last few days!). These same liability issues would also demand that you have standards and procedures which can be shown to protect and serve both your instructors and students, which would basically mean that they would need to be somewhat similar to your competition in order to withstand the scrutiny of the court.

And last but not least, you would have to get "buy in" from the instructors and other respected industry people such as manufacturers. Without that, it would be doomed to failure. Also, it would be important to make the instructors feel like you are not "stealing" their business.

Your idea about different people learning in different ways is obviously correct. Maybe instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, with what would basically be yet another certification agency, you should try partnering up with one or more of the existing agencies.

PM sent.

Regards,
Randy

Dutchy · 9th December 2006, 20:04

Separate education and validation alltogether... It has several benefits:
a) It becomes an option to take a course with one instructor then having your abilities validated by another. Of course you are going to pass the test he instructed you and hey you will not flink yourself right

b) If you are proficient there's no need to do the course. Just take the exam and get recognised for what you are worth. Then spend your money on a course in a disciplin that you haven't mastered (only to return in months from now for the examination)

Next thing is that you should pay for what you get. Simply replacing classroom training for e-learning is going to save costs. Why give all of that to the instructor? If you do that then some agencies will advocate their offerings as better and real value for money? Why would I be inclined to buy e-training if I can have real training with oportunities for asking questions that may sometimes be aimed at increasing my understanding rather than be directly related to the course at hand?
It sounds like yet another way of increasing profitability more than anything else. e-learning has ernormous benefits the principal being low cost while still providing flexibility (anytime, anywhere)... Using it out of greed is the worst approach...

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 9th December 2006, 20:07

While I believe that much of the theory could be covered by such a testing procedure followed by the instructor filling in and supplementing from there, I can't see how there can be a substitute for in-water sessions. However, these sessions could proceed in much the same way: skills evaluation and needs of the student followed by learning and experience to fill in the gaps. Isn't this more or less what goes on currently (other than certain minimums that standards of a unit or agency requires)?

Genesis · 9th December 2006, 20:47

What I have advocated before is two-fold:

First, let us establish whether or not certification actually needs to be a precondition of diving in any form. This is not established by saying either "we've done it this way for a long time so it has to be like that" nor by bald assertions of "everyone will die." We must look first to the facts - how many people dive now at Level X (which represents something beyond their formal certs) with no formal certification and what are the outcomes they experience? The evidence I have seen thus far is that there is no support for mandatory certifications of any kind. For example, Gordon Smith sold over 100 KISS Classics with no mandatory training requirement and nobody killed themself with one. Leon has sold some number more than that of Megalodons with mandatory training and what's the current body count - seven? There are simply no facts on the table supporting a mandatory training regime (if you've got some, let's see 'em)
IF, however, we establish that there is a need for mandatory certifications then in fact what we are doing is licensing divers. In this case we need to follow a licensing model. This means that:
- There must be objective and published criteria for each certification. This criteria must be developed in public, with each point and standard being debated and subject to proof as both necessary and sufficient. For example, if we establish that the "proper ascent rate" is 30fpm or slower for a no-stop dive, and that one must be able to make a clean safety stop, then the standard would be "must make an unassisted free ascent in water without current from the working depth to 15', not violating the 30fpm ascent rate, and stop at 15' for three minutes with no more than a 5' deviation from the target depth during the stop period. Ascent and stop is to be made using only the diver's gauges and no external aids (e.g. upline contact)" That is an objective criteria that can be scored "pass/fail". Each standard for a given level of certification must be stated in such a fashion.
- You must be able to pay, for a reasonable fee (say, one hour's shop time or approximately $100 for no-deco procedures, and two hours' time or $200 for a decompression-required procedure), to be tested for any such level of certification and, should you pass, you must be issued the appropriate cert. The agency or agencies performing testing must not be allowed to perform training so there is no conflict of interest. This may require an organ of government to perform the testing if we cannot find private sources willing to do this for the cost of testing only. For no-dive-required certs (e.g. Nitrox) the certification fee should not be more than that required to administer a paper (or electronic) test - $25.00
- How you acquire the knowledge and ability to pass the appropriate certification must be entirely at your own option.I
- In no case may a manufacturer hold your equipment hostage. You bought it, you own it - period. How you acquire the knowledge to use it is now your decision, so there is no longer any justification for "activation PINs" or shipping pieces (like a scrubber lid or KISS valve) to an instructor instead of you.

This gets rid of all the games. It stops people from "cheating" the system now, which users here have admitted to doing, it prevents instructors from gouging divers, it prevents illegal tied sales from being attempted and it insures that transparency and science, including full public discourse and disclosure lie behind the certification requirements.

If you wish to learn how to do <X> then you may seek out whoever you'd like and they may structure their class however they would like. They are not in control of the standards (that is done via a transparent public process) so there is no way to "rig" the class so as to make it fit some preconceived model of what the class is worth. It leads to free and open competition between instructional sources, which is pro-free market.

There is not a snowball's chance in hell that under such a model unit-specific certifications fly from a standpoint of objective review. At most you'd have a "checkdive" requirement at a cost of $50-100 on a new unit.

***schford*** · 9th December 2006, 22:52

Karl,

Please, please, please, try and get your point across succinctly - I am really patient but I am inundated with complaints about you writing page upon page of your opinions and constantly dragging debates off at a tangent.

You are stifling debate as people just shut off. You don't need to repeat the same thing time and time again in different threads.

In this thread you have completely gone off at a tangent I asked people what they thought of my ideas not whether certification / licensing needs to be a precondition of diving - if you want to discuss that then start your own thread, then people can choose to contribute to it or not.

Please take my feedback on board and in future when replying to some ones thread make your point succinctly and on topic or they will be deleted / moved - as always feel free to start your own threads.

Stuart

***schford*** · 9th December 2006, 22:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mixaddict)

Stuart,

In order for the RBW site training program to have any respectability, ie. certs that are accepted by boats, resorts, gate keepers etc., it would have to be endorsed and recognized by the international community as having pretty much the same level of standards as the competition (TDI, IANTD, etc. etc.)

Hi Randy,

I wasn't proposing running an out and ou training program but just testing out the e-learning / assesment concept - not actually issuing certifications etc.

Stuart

Genesis · 9th December 2006, 22:54

I cut out the second half (which dealt with whether the cert was required at all) and left my view on if we're going to do certifications, how do they have to be done.

I also started a new thread on how it ought to be handled, modelled after what exists in the Equine Industry (at least in the US), which has similar issues and concerns.

They did not go the route of certification cards.

CharlieT · 10th December 2006, 16:09

Karl

Please can you drop the bold within your postings?

Charliet

9th December 2006, 18:37	#1 (permalink)
*schford* RBW Founder Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,564	Rebreather Training ----> Certification With training as well as giving you the skills to stay alive what one is aiming for is a certification which states that a user has a level of competance that enables manufactures, boat operators, resort destinations etc to feel confident that said user is not going to kill themselves and thereby cause them upset, hassle, bad PR or even cost them money in court. Now currently the only way to get said certification is to do a course, however we recognise that all sorts of training goes on and individuals learn in different ways, mentoring, e-learning, discussion, courses etc Part of the business I run for my day job involves delivering training for Procurment, Project Management and ILS. The approach we are now adopting is recognising that a one size fits all sheep dunk course is out of date, expensive and wasteful. We now provide an upfront assesment to identify the candidates level of knowledge and then provide him the right level and combination of e-learning and classroom based learning before sitting his exam. Incidentally - the level of people that do without classroom training all together (our equivelant of in water training) is minimal. Now if we were to roll out this approach to Rebreather training one could imagine a much greater mix of e-learning, discussion and in water training taking place - with the aim being to pass an exam to gain your certification, which would be both written for theory, in water to establish skills competancy and practical to demonstrate a level of mastery of setting up and mainting your equipment. Your actual mix of training would depend on how you did with your initial assesment. Perhaps I should set up some basic e-learning and testing on Rebreather theory on RBW to establish whether this approach would be beneficial, we can then expand to include some unit practicals. If that went well we would then need to consider the next steps. I should also point out that I would not imagine the cost of training changing that much as the instructors need to earn a living - but perhaps you would get more bang for your buck as it were. Thoughts? Stuart __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of RBW is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
(Offline)

9th December 2006, 18:58	#2 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 796	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) With training as well as giving you the skills to stay alive what one is aiming for is a certification which states that a user has a level of competance that enables manufactures, boat operators, resort destinations etc to feel confident that said user is not going to kill themselves and thereby cause them upset, hassle, bad PR or even cost them money in court. Now currently the only way to get said certification is to do a course, however we recognise that all sorts of training goes on and individuals learn in different ways, mentoring, e-learning, discussion, courses etc Part of the business I run for my day job involves delivering training for Procurment, Project Management and ILS. The approach we are now adopting is recognising that a one size fits all sheep dunk course is out of date, expensive and wasteful. We now provide an upfront assesment to identify the candidates level of knowledge and then provide him the right level and combination of e-learning and classroom based learning before sitting his exam. Incidentally - the level of people that do without classroom training all together (our equivelant of in water training) is minimal. Now if we were to roll out this approach to Rebreather training one could imagine a much greater mix of e-learning, discussion and in water training taking place - with the aim being to pass an exam to gain your certification, which would be both written for theory, in water to establish skills competancy and practical to demonstrate a level of mastery of setting up and mainting your equipment. Your actual mix of training would depend on how you did with your initial assesment. Perhaps I should set up some basic e-learning and testing on Rebreather theory on RBW to establish whether this approach would be beneficial, we can then expand to include some unit practicals. If that went well we would then need to consider the next steps. I should also point out that I would not imagine the cost of training changing that much as the instructors need to earn a living - but perhaps you would get more bang for your buck as it were. Thoughts? Stuart Hi Stuart, I feel RBW already does this! I think it is a good idea but you would need instructor endorsement, If I were an instructor I would only recognize and recommend material that I approved of. Example Mastering Rebreather's was recommended reading prior to my CCR course. __________________ Safe Diving, Martin
(Offline)

9th December 2006, 19:45	#3 (permalink)
Mixaddict RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Draper, Utah USA Posts: 520	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification Stuart, In order for the RBW site training program to have any respectability, ie. certs that are accepted by boats, resorts, gate keepers etc., it would have to be endorsed and recognized by the international community as having pretty much the same level of standards as the competition (TDI, IANTD, etc. etc.) Additionally, you would have to in some way deal with the liability issues, which are not to be trivialized, (much to the chagrin of certain long winded people who have been posting the last few days!). These same liability issues would also demand that you have standards and procedures which can be shown to protect and serve both your instructors and students, which would basically mean that they would need to be somewhat similar to your competition in order to withstand the scrutiny of the court. And last but not least, you would have to get "buy in" from the instructors and other respected industry people such as manufacturers. Without that, it would be doomed to failure. Also, it would be important to make the instructors feel like you are not "stealing" their business. Your idea about different people learning in different ways is obviously correct. Maybe instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, with what would basically be yet another certification agency, you should try partnering up with one or more of the existing agencies. PM sent. Regards, Randy __________________ Randy Thornton (MixAddict) Inspiration, Evolution, Hammerhead & Sentinel CCR Instructor
(Offline)

9th December 2006, 20:04	#4 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 844	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification Separate education and validation alltogether... It has several benefits: a) It becomes an option to take a course with one instructor then having your abilities validated by another. Of course you are going to pass the test he instructed you and hey you will not flink yourself right b) If you are proficient there's no need to do the course. Just take the exam and get recognised for what you are worth. Then spend your money on a course in a disciplin that you haven't mastered (only to return in months from now for the examination) Next thing is that you should pay for what you get. Simply replacing classroom training for e-learning is going to save costs. Why give all of that to the instructor? If you do that then some agencies will advocate their offerings as better and real value for money? Why would I be inclined to buy e-training if I can have real training with oportunities for asking questions that may sometimes be aimed at increasing my understanding rather than be directly related to the course at hand? It sounds like yet another way of increasing profitability more than anything else. e-learning has ernormous benefits the principal being low cost while still providing flexibility (anytime, anywhere)... Using it out of greed is the worst approach... __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
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9th December 2006, 20:07	#5 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,215	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification While I believe that much of the theory could be covered by such a testing procedure followed by the instructor filling in and supplementing from there, I can't see how there can be a substitute for in-water sessions. However, these sessions could proceed in much the same way: skills evaluation and needs of the student followed by learning and experience to fill in the gaps. Isn't this more or less what goes on currently (other than certain minimums that standards of a unit or agency requires)? __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Offline)

9th December 2006, 20:47	#6 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification What I have advocated before is two-fold: First, let us establish whether or not certification actually needs to be a precondition of diving in any form. This is not established by saying either "we've done it this way for a long time so it has to be like that" nor by bald assertions of "everyone will die." We must look first to the facts - how many people dive now at Level X (which represents something beyond their formal certs) with no formal certification and what are the outcomes they experience? The evidence I have seen thus far is that there is no support for mandatory certifications of any kind. For example, Gordon Smith sold over 100 KISS Classics with no mandatory training requirement and nobody killed themself with one. Leon has sold some number more than that of Megalodons with mandatory training and what's the current body count - seven? There are simply no facts on the table supporting a mandatory training regime (if you've got some, let's see 'em) IF, however, we establish that there is a need for mandatory certifications then in fact what we are doing is licensing divers. In this case we need to follow a licensing model. This means that: There must be objective and published criteria for each certification. This criteria must be developed in public, with each point and standard being debated and subject to proof as both necessary and sufficient. For example, if we establish that the "proper ascent rate" is 30fpm or slower for a no-stop dive, and that one must be able to make a clean safety stop, then the standard would be "must make an unassisted free ascent in water without current from the working depth to 15', not violating the 30fpm ascent rate, and stop at 15' for three minutes with no more than a 5' deviation from the target depth during the stop period. Ascent and stop is to be made using only the diver's gauges and no external aids (e.g. upline contact)" That is an objective criteria that can be scored "pass/fail". Each standard for a given level of certification must be stated in such a fashion. You must be able to pay, for a reasonable fee (say, one hour's shop time or approximately $100 for no-deco procedures, and two hours' time or $200 for a decompression-required procedure), to be tested for any such level of certification and, should you pass, you must be issued the appropriate cert. The agency or agencies performing testing must not be allowed to perform training so there is no conflict of interest. This may require an organ of government to perform the testing if we cannot find private sources willing to do this for the cost of testing only. For no-dive-required certs (e.g. Nitrox) the certification fee should not be more than that required to administer a paper (or electronic) test - $25.00 How you acquire the knowledge and ability to pass the appropriate certification must be entirely at your own option.I In no case may a manufacturer hold your equipment hostage. You bought it, you own it - period. How you acquire the knowledge to use it is now your decision, so there is no longer any justification for "activation PINs" or shipping pieces (like a scrubber lid or KISS valve) to an instructor instead of you. This gets rid of all the games. It stops people from "cheating" the system now, which users here have admitted to doing, it prevents instructors from gouging divers, it prevents illegal tied sales from being attempted and it insures that transparency and science, including full public discourse and disclosure lie behind the certification requirements. If you wish to learn how to do <X> then you may seek out whoever you'd like and they may structure their class however they would like. They are not in control of the standards (that is done via a transparent public process) so there is no way to "rig" the class so as to make it fit some preconceived model of what the class is worth. It leads to free and open competition between instructional sources, which is pro-free market. There is not a snowball's chance in hell that under such a model unit-specific certifications fly from a standpoint of objective review. At most you'd have a "checkdive" requirement at a cost of $50-100 on a new unit. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket Last edited by Genesis : 9th December 2006 at 22:54.
(Offline)

9th December 2006, 22:52	#7 (permalink)
*schford* RBW Founder Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,564	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification Karl, Please, please, please, try and get your point across succinctly - I am really patient but I am inundated with complaints about you writing page upon page of your opinions and constantly dragging debates off at a tangent. You are stifling debate as people just shut off. You don't need to repeat the same thing time and time again in different threads. In this thread you have completely gone off at a tangent I asked people what they thought of my ideas not whether certification / licensing needs to be a precondition of diving - if you want to discuss that then start your own thread, then people can choose to contribute to it or not. Please take my feedback on board and in future when replying to some ones thread make your point succinctly and on topic or they will be deleted / moved - as always feel free to start your own threads. Stuart __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of RBW is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
(Offline)

9th December 2006, 22:54	#8 (permalink)
*schford* RBW Founder Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,564	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification Quote: (Originally Posted by Mixaddict) Stuart, In order for the RBW site training program to have any respectability, ie. certs that are accepted by boats, resorts, gate keepers etc., it would have to be endorsed and recognized by the international community as having pretty much the same level of standards as the competition (TDI, IANTD, etc. etc.) Hi Randy, I wasn't proposing running an out and ou training program but just testing out the e-learning / assesment concept - not actually issuing certifications etc. Stuart __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of RBW is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
(Offline)

9th December 2006, 22:54	#9 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification I cut out the second half (which dealt with whether the cert was required at all) and left my view on if we're going to do certifications, how do they have to be done. I also started a new thread on how it ought to be handled, modelled after what exists in the Equine Industry (at least in the US), which has similar issues and concerns. They did not go the route of certification cards. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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10th December 2006, 16:09	#10 (permalink)
CharlieT Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 449	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification Karl Please can you drop the bold within your postings? Charliet
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