Rebreather Training ----> Certification

dgschott · 12th December 2006, 04:29

If it's good, and gives us the opportunity to learn, re-learn, or re-think practices that have been taught, I'm all for it - I think it sounds great!

UKSteve · 12th December 2006, 08:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

I find it totally unconscionable that manufacturers don't publish things like user's manuals widely - and have them be thorough enough to actually figure out their unit (assuming you know generally how to dive a CCR) all on its own.

Well I would argue that some do... see APD Manuals online

On a more general note I spend my working life delivering technical training and have watched with bemusement the jargon and trends that come and go over the years - much of it dreamed up in academic research - not always totally connected with reality I fear. As with similar business management philosophies - they do not always make the transition to real life that well...and it is the recipient that ends up demonstrating the fact!!

Workplace learning, blended learning, e-learning might be seen as raves akin to Time and Motion, ISO 900, TQM, 6 Sigma etc etc!!

IMHO however, nothing is as technically effective as face to face learning...as long as the instructor / trainer is skilled in the art ...and it is an art to follow the three steps forward one step back kind of circular approach...developing knowledge and then testing its penetration before moving foward. The instructor needs to be mentally agile - working on three planes simultaneously... delivering the knowledge, testing understanding and then adapting the dialogue to suit progress of the participants.

Technically effective yes but perhaps not always the most cost effective method of learning. It is great to have some of the ground work done for you when participants have pre-learning to get through first. However it can also be counter productive ... unlearning misconceptions can take as much time - if not longer - than doing the teaching in the first place!

The other issue with e-learning is the up-front cost of developing a system that can come close to the mechanics of face to face teaching. Great if there are big $$ that can be charged subsequently. Simply getting concensus on content could take it round in circles for years!

So - where does my rambling leave me? RBW is a priceless inventory of knowledge but its a huge step to turn this into structured e-learning that would effectively augment (cos it can never replace) the face to face technical training of a conventional course.

Steve

decoweenie · 12th December 2006, 09:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

and phi, thanks for sticking up for me on that other thread....not!

Ron,

You have to pick your battle, dude. On some I would rather poke a hot iron in my eye ball than to participate...

r0ckcrew · 12th December 2006, 11:13

Guys',

I think an e-learning on this site would be a great addition to expanding knowledge and gaining information.
When I did my TDI Mod1 last year the training manual was terrible( I have since purchased the new manual and it is very good), it was left to the instructor to structure the course and supply the info. Dont get me wrong, my instructor was excellent, but at the time the only information I could get was from this site and the AP on-line manual.
As I am now looking at Trimix diving- there still is not a TDI Trimix CCR manual as far as I know, in fact does any agency have a Trimix CCR manual?
When there are significantly different procedures for the way you employ mix on CCR, both from a physiological and an emergency response perspective.

Rgds

Tommy

bletso · 12th December 2006, 11:57

Hey all,

What do we really want? First I see complaining there are too many levels and now I see what appears to be a want for more. i.e. CCRTrimix training specific.

If you are a comfortable, capable trimix adherent and a comfortable, capable rebreather diver, the two can be merged without special training.

The problem I have seen in the past is competent, capable trimix adherents attempting complicated CCR dives without sufficient background to be competent with the CCR.

Like cave diving, nothing in realm of OC diving can prepare one for the special nature of caves, nothing in OC diving really prepares one for the special nature of CCR diving. IMO, only those who have gained sufficient hours on CCR to realize that the more experience they gain, the more of a novice they become can safely make the transition to CCR-trimix.

We have lost some very capable and experience OC trimix guru's with too few hours CCR to get to that stage, and they paid the ultimate price.

I would go so far as to insist that if a CCR-trimix certification be offered one should have at least 100 hours CCR experience. IMO, the CCR experience is more important that the hours on OC trimix. I would be more comfortable teaching or mentoring a well experience CCR diver trimix than a well experienced trimix diver CCR.

Dale

12th December 2006, 04:29	#31 (permalink)
dgschott Liquid Productions, LLC Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Aston, PA Posts: 115	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification If it's good, and gives us the opportunity to learn, re-learn, or re-think practices that have been taught, I'm all for it - I think it sounds great! __________________ David Schott Liquid Productions, LLC
(Offline)

12th December 2006, 08:46	#32 (permalink)
UKSteve Steve Collard Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 601	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) I find it totally unconscionable that manufacturers don't publish things like user's manuals widely - and have them be thorough enough to actually figure out their unit (assuming you know generally how to dive a CCR) all on its own. Well I would argue that some do... see APD Manuals online On a more general note I spend my working life delivering technical training and have watched with bemusement the jargon and trends that come and go over the years - much of it dreamed up in academic research - not always totally connected with reality I fear. As with similar business management philosophies - they do not always make the transition to real life that well...and it is the recipient that ends up demonstrating the fact!! Workplace learning, blended learning, e-learning might be seen as raves akin to Time and Motion, ISO 900, TQM, 6 Sigma etc etc!! IMHO however, nothing is as technically effective as face to face learning...as long as the instructor / trainer is skilled in the art ...and it is an art to follow the three steps forward one step back kind of circular approach...developing knowledge and then testing its penetration before moving foward. The instructor needs to be mentally agile - working on three planes simultaneously... delivering the knowledge, testing understanding and then adapting the dialogue to suit progress of the participants. Technically effective yes but perhaps not always the most cost effective method of learning. It is great to have some of the ground work done for you when participants have pre-learning to get through first. However it can also be counter productive ... unlearning misconceptions can take as much time - if not longer - than doing the teaching in the first place! The other issue with e-learning is the up-front cost of developing a system that can come close to the mechanics of face to face teaching. Great if there are big $$ that can be charged subsequently. Simply getting concensus on content could take it round in circles for years! So - where does my rambling leave me? RBW is a priceless inventory of knowledge but its a huge step to turn this into structured e-learning that would effectively augment (cos it can never replace) the face to face technical training of a conventional course. Steve
(Offline)

12th December 2006, 09:54	#33 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) and phi, thanks for sticking up for me on that other thread....not! Ron, You have to pick your battle, dude. On some I would rather poke a hot iron in my eye ball than to participate... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

12th December 2006, 11:13	#34 (permalink)
r0ckcrew New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: UK Posts: 28	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification Guys', I think an e-learning on this site would be a great addition to expanding knowledge and gaining information. When I did my TDI Mod1 last year the training manual was terrible( I have since purchased the new manual and it is very good), it was left to the instructor to structure the course and supply the info. Dont get me wrong, my instructor was excellent, but at the time the only information I could get was from this site and the AP on-line manual. As I am now looking at Trimix diving- there still is not a TDI Trimix CCR manual as far as I know, in fact does any agency have a Trimix CCR manual? When there are significantly different procedures for the way you employ mix on CCR, both from a physiological and an emergency response perspective. Rgds Tommy
(Offline)

12th December 2006, 11:57	#35 (permalink)
bletso An independent diver. Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 263	Re: Rebreather Training ----> Certification Hey all, What do we really want? First I see complaining there are too many levels and now I see what appears to be a want for more. i.e. CCRTrimix training specific. If you are a comfortable, capable trimix adherent and a comfortable, capable rebreather diver, the two can be merged without special training. The problem I have seen in the past is competent, capable trimix adherents attempting complicated CCR dives without sufficient background to be competent with the CCR. Like cave diving, nothing in realm of OC diving can prepare one for the special nature of caves, nothing in OC diving really prepares one for the special nature of CCR diving. IMO, only those who have gained sufficient hours on CCR to realize that the more experience they gain, the more of a novice they become can safely make the transition to CCR-trimix. We have lost some very capable and experience OC trimix guru's with too few hours CCR to get to that stage, and they paid the ultimate price. I would go so far as to insist that if a CCR-trimix certification be offered one should have at least 100 hours CCR experience. IMO, the CCR experience is more important that the hours on OC trimix. I would be more comfortable teaching or mentoring a well experience CCR diver trimix than a well experienced trimix diver CCR. Dale
(Online)

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