[Dutchy]

Karl you can have my word quotum if you are ever short of that. Keep up the good work !
Why? If you don't deal with it at the source then it is a matter of time before it gets across the Atlantic and the current practises just have no place here...

[Gobfish1]

my word quotum to ,

[decoweenie]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

Irrelevant really...

Not really as both agencies I am associating with have options to do cross-over between Rebreather units. Independent of what the instructor says, you could also verify with against the agency standards.

[Mike]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

In any event the reason for people like you to get involved in fixing this is because at some point in the future it is likely you will want to dive a DIFFERENT unit than the one you own now.

Or it may be that having to do manditory training on another unit prevents me from buying another unit in the future - or I go the second hand route and avoid the issue.

I wasn't trying to argue with you, whilst I do think that unit famiarisation is very important, I agree with you in not liking forced training and everything that results from it. But I'm also realistic enough to know that I have limited leisure time, and I'd prefer to spend it diving rather than tilting at windmills.

It's apathetic, I know, but I find I can live with it - and don't think I'm alone.
(How many trimix level divers subsidise their own training/diving by teaching others, and taking advantage of the pyramid scheme?)

Mike

[Genesis]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

(How many trimix level divers subsidise their own training/diving by teaching others, and taking advantage of the pyramid scheme?)

Mike

I dunno - I bought my own compressor and setup my own fill station, which made the cost argument fairly moot - its just the cost of the gas itself now....

[Mike]

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Not really as both agencies I am associating with have options to do cross-over between Rebreather units. Independent of what the instructor says, you could also verify with against the agency standards.

Phi - it is irrelevent as there is one instructor within 10 000+ kms, so they can do / charge what they want. There is also a very small pool of students so the instructor needs to be able to recoup their own (substantial) training costs. It doesn't matter if the agency supports crossover courses, it wasn't a viable option at the time.
The full course was the most cost effective way of getting certified (and was both useful and entertaining). I just don't agree that a course should be manditory for purchasing the unit.

Mike

[decoweenie]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

...it is irrelevent as there is one instructor within 10 000+ kms, so they can do / charge what they want...

OK, I just said that because I had someone flew to UAE from UK to do the cross-over course. And I didn't charge him a full course price.

Damn, may be I should have used the distance excuse...

[Mike]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

I dunno - I bought my own compressor and setup my own fill station, which made the cost argument fairly moot - its just the cost of the gas itself now....

Moot as long as you only dive at home, you're screwed if you want to dive while travelling.

Mike

[Genesis]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

Moot as long as you only dive at home, you're screwed if you want to dive while travelling.

Mike

True enough - and that's one of the reasons that I'm interested in seeing this fixed.

There's somewhere in the mid-5-figure range worth of money that I have not spent on dive trips due to these issues. I simply refuse to go if I'm going to have this sort of problem, and instead spend my money on something else. I've found that the best way to solve problems like this is with economics.

[RonMicjan]

This is far too lengthy to try and quote and post, so Karl's comments in black, my thoughts in red.
Honestly Karl, Im not trying to paint you a bad guy, only trying to get you to see the other side, meaning, not everyone is as smart as you, I believe you are smart enough to know that you dont know everything, some are not so gifted. I was impressed as hell to see you actually put a working CCR together from scratch, kudos to you and I told you so at DEMA. Problem is, you want to change a system that admittedly has its faults, to one of relative chaos. Most folks have no problem with paying an instructor to teach them what they dont know. Skiing (what I have been doing while this post went 5 pages), golfing, tennis, etc, any of which one can do with no more cards than visa, and sure, you can get injured by any of these and even killed while skiing (ask Sonny Bono). Many folks do these sports for a lifetime with no formal training and most survive. Lets try a few more...Driving a car, riding a motorcycle, skydiving, flying an airplane or helicopter, operating a PWC or boat. Sure, some can be self taught, but would you honestly go buy a second hand parachute, have a buddy take you up in his plane and jump out? Who packed your parachute the first time? Who showed you how to not go into a death spin? There are agencies that teach and certify in all these sports, some mandated by the government. Do people still die, even after certification, of course, people do stupid things, its a fact. Why does the FAA make rules concerning private aviation? Because early on, people did stupid things and got themselves killed, so the government stepped in and wrote a massive rule book and set up pilot, and mechanic certification programs to try and help. did it help? who is to know for a fact, but civil aviation is alive and well, however hopelessly clogged with rules, this is why cessna still puts engines in airplanes that use magnetos for ignition, because the FAA wont certificate an engine that uses electronic ignition, a staple in the auto industry for 20 years now. If WE dont mandate training programs, the government will, and we see how they do it. introducing the Federal Rebreather Administration Under Denninger (spell it out) ...just being funny there So, I will attempt to answer some of your rebuttals, and then I will go to bed, and you can continue to rant, but this will be my last post, as I dont have anything else to say, and I dont want to use up all my allocated words in one week.



Few and fewer. You have no proof of this either, its completly conjecture, just like my post was, its an opinion, one of which I am entitled to and many agree with, judging from the emails, green blobs, and PM's I received.

How about you be honest about this Ron? MANY people perform dives with zero formal training. I know many of them and have dove with more than a few. They're all still alive. Sure and I do too, but again, not everyone is that smart
You can buy literally everything you need to go diving off eBAY or internet retailers (Leisurepro, etc) - including a compressor.

Many dive shops don't actually ask for cards to get a fill.

TDL sells doubles without proof of a technical certification. Virtually any shop will sell you a deco bottle without seeing a deco card. None of this was about diving OC, it was about diving CCR, which is a whole different animal

There are hundreds of cave dives made every weekend at Vortex alone by open water divers. The gate is at 300' and 110' down. You cannot make a free ascent from there. No way no how. ALL of those OW divers come in there with a single and most with a $10 flashlight. Have some people died? Yes, a few. In comparsion to the number of successful dives has it been a big number? No. So why did Sheck have to write a book, and the mexican government make several federal laws about cave diving? Ask Matt from protec about that, he lives there and takes this quite seriously, the government isnt going to jump in if there isnt people dying and someone making noise about it
This is simply not rare and yet the "body count" isn't what's always predicted. It just isn't! Because its not as prevelant as you are insisting, where is your poll? Did you sit and count? checking everyones cards as they geared up?
So that means you're not a good judge of your ability as an instructor either! Hmmmm.... Thats why Leon is the ultimate judge of my ability as an instructor, he builds the rigs, he decides who gets to be an instructor, the other judges were Joe Dituri, who decided I could be trusted as a KISS instructor, and Alan Studley who signed me off as a draeger instructor, I did the studying, put in the time, paid my instructors for their time and then I pass on what I learn. This is what keeps the system going. If instructors did not get paid for their time, what kind of class do you think the students would get?

No instructor can force you to take along a bailout cylinder either. You can't learn to dive from a book but you sure as hell can with progressive practice, which is how we do it now!

Start in a pool - after you start on the COUCH! All part of the course, but we call it "dirt diving"
Bald assertion not supported by the evidence. Ah, yes, but where is your evidence that the system doesnt work? I see 4000 members on RBW, a good majority who have been trained by certified instructors and are quite happy diving. Yes, we have had some fatalities, but from all the evidence I have seen, and heard of, its mostly been diver error. Instructors fault? maybe, but maybe student doing things they ought not of. go read the DAN report of dive accidents, lots of folks beyond their training.

Indeed, I've heard this before. I have challenged people to present the proof of that claim (that the government was ready to step in) with a proposed bill, a DRAFT (well before the level of a proposed anything), or any other documentation for their claims. They have so far been unable to do so. I wasnt there, was a bit young to even care, but some old timers have related the stories. Why else did training agencies bother to get started, if no one saw a problem, why start a business from it. Two of the first agencies were not for profit, the YMCA and LA County. Do you think they were out to break the bank by selling scuba instruction? Dont be silly, they wanted people to dive SAFELY!
Have we saved lives? I'm not so sure! Of course you are not, you dont have any evidence either way. Just the desire to argue and push only what Karl wants.
And in any event, that's not the point.

If you could cut the death rate in half, would you mandate that we do so?

Be careful with answering this, because I can cut the death rate in the United States in half tomorrow. All I have to do is ban you from overeating under penalty of law, ban smoking and ban all consumption of alcohol and illegal drugs.

Oh wait - we already try doing some of that and it doesn't work so well, does it? Hmmmm.....I believe that if you smoke, eat yourself to obesity, drink yourself into the grave, or dive a CCR without training, you are taking a chance on killing yourself. No one is stopping you from doing any of these things, that doesnt mean we shouldnt try. If an agency wants to grow, it helps to not kill off your acolytes. Something Phillip morris, mcdonalds, and crown royal dont seem to care about because their products are either addictive, or they have such a broad audience they just dont care, or it takes so long to kill them off, that its hard to make the coorelation. If someone dies while diving, the family isnt going to sue mcdonalds the next day. who are they going to sue? take a guess.

But if you look at things you could make mandatory (or illegal) in terms of number of people who get cacked for the proposal made, diving is way down the list of where you should apply your efforts. Obesity, smoking and alcohol are so far out in front of everything else that until you're ready to pass the laws to make those illegal you're barking up a tree. Right, but the diving industry doesnt have billions of dollars to pay for lobbyists, so we put our money into training instead

Let's look at the reality here - the US Supreme Court has declared that it is your constitutional right to engage in a consensual adult practice that has a FIFTY PERCENT death rate. FIFTY PERCENT! And that death rate isn't conjecture as is YOUR warning of dire consequences - its a documented FACT according to the CDC.

So where do you get off trying to give force of law (and you would if you could, wouldn't you?) to what you believe? Dont put words in my mouth, and stop being purposely dense, I support training, not laws about such, go read where I say I dont WANT the government sticking its nose in my business.

You want to know what I think has made the biggest difference in terms of caves? Signage. The "grim reaper" signs are bullship in that they're fundamentally dishonest and intended to scare rather than inform, but they appear to work for the most part.

Funny thing is that when you look at the statistics we still get people who cack themselves cave diving - they just have cards now, where they didn't before. Have we really fixed anything? yes, we have given them the "Blueprint for survival" done our best to teach them the correct, safe way to accomplish a task, its their own take from there if they want to use the knowledge

Accusing someone of being a homicidal maniac, insane or worse is akin to my accusing you of molesting young boys. I'm sure you don't want to go there, right? and you accuse me of bringing emotionally charged comments into the ring, this was ENTIRELY uncalled for, but when folks are wrong, they tend to throw mud and slander, so feel free to go anywhere you want

Never mind that such an allegation constitutes an admission that you don't have an answer to the philosophical point on the table and thus must try to sway others with emotional - rather than factual - appeals. Yup, MR. Facts, thats you
Pushing for freedom is not pushing someone to do a thing. It is advocating for the absence of force. You, on the other hand, advocate for the imposition of force. NOT. Again, no one stopping you from doing your thing, but the manufacturers dont want you killing yourself on their inventions, so they ask you to get trained. no bodys fault but your own if you die on the K1
You're quite intelligent so I'm very sure you know this, and thus you know that trying to claim otherwise is not an honest appraisal.

Do you hold the view that if you believe a cause is just then its ok to lie? Everything i have written, is my opinion, I dont advocate lying for any reason, other than the obvious "does my butt look big in this?"

Then take responsibility for your instruction. You, the agency(s) you instruct for, the firm(s) that build the units you teach on and the shops you work for all refuse. I take personal and moral responsibilty to do my utmost best in training a CCR student to be proficient in their operation of the unit so they can best be prepared for the eventual failure of said unit and have it be a simple bailout rather than a life threatening emergency

Indeed, that's where the rubber meets the road.

You don't believe your own bullship!

I'm philosophically and ethically consistent. You are not.

Proof please.

Oh wait - you don't have any. And what's worse, you don't believe your own prescription actually works! Really? Then why have I paid for thousands of dollars worth of instruction? Didnt you read the part where I wrote that my training was worth every penny?
Never mind that your approach has resulted from collusive actions that are suspect under US Law at best and has come along with a blunt refusal to accept legal responsibility for what you teach. The only law you have stated had to do with IBM bundling a service contract and technical support with a server. This is a FAR CRY from life support systems and training someone how to keep themselves alive. Just because you have run a big company, doesnt prepare you to care for someones basic heartbeat.

The unit-specific class is just one of many examples. It is utterly indefensible. Not even PADI, who is with good cause known as "Put Another Dollar In", pulls this crap. They don't try to claim that you need anything beyond an OW card to dive with doubles, for example - yet that's a HUGE change from a single on a poodle jacket and, mishandled, it can kill you! Guess you havent seen the tec/rec program

"Its a small price to pay." To you, of course - you're not paying - you're collecting. BS, see above sentence on what I have INVESTED into training

Second, you still won't accept responsibility for the quality of your class. You still insist that I sign a waiver that says that I won't sue you even if you are actually negligent and teach me bullship, and that is the proximate result of my death! this is not my insistance, it is the agency who provides my materials and qualifies me to teach and agrees to hire representation for me should a suit come about. There is no way I could afford to pay an attorney to represent me in a wrongful death suit brought on by a relative of someone who may have died that I trained years ago. any one can sue for any silly reason, I pay for insurance that pays for the attorney in this instance. Karl, please get your facts straight on how this system works, prior to your blanket condemnation of it. They insist I have a waiver signed if I want them to back me up, only a fool wouldnt get a student to sign the waiver. However, there are several folks out there who I have trained to dive on a CCR dolphin, there was no agency involved, nor insurance company, nor lawyers, ask those folks if they signed a waiver.

So let me see if I got this right:

1. You claim that I don't know enough to dive the unit without your class, and if I try to, I will die. This is your justification for forcing me to take it. NOT EVEN, geeze buddy, get your facts straight, can you point to a post where I said this??? Please, your becoming condensending

2. However, you don't believe your class is actually correct and complete - that is, it contains the information I need to avoid dying. Nor do are you REALLY sure that I actually mastered it when you gave me the card. How do I know this? Because before you'll teach the class you force me to sign a paper that says exactly this! Again, total BS, I wont award you the cert if I dont see mastery of the skills, regardless of what you signed.
But - remember point #1? You claim that I am incapable of judging whether or not you're F.O.S. So you want me to trust you, but you just got done shoving a waiver under my nose that says that I can't trust you! So why are you asking me to teach you if A: you already have the knowledge to judge the instruction, and B: you dont trust me?

If you don't think this is a problem then you're the one who needs help. Its obvious you dont know the situation, you are not an instructor, have not taken any classes, and as usual dont have your facts straight, and keep trying to read my mind about my intentions.
More importantly though is the philosophical problem with this position. "But for banning this or requiring that, we could cut the number of deaths by X." I've already pointed out that diving is so far down the list as to not count.
But that's not the point.

The singular point here is this - is self-determination a right you respect or not?

There's nothing complex in this analysis.


My life is quite important to me. A wise man will seek training

The rest of karl's post is inflammatory emotional crap, so I wont fan the flames, but for a couple places

But it is not my place to judge whether anyone else's life is important to them, nor is it my place to tell them that they're too stupid to judge whether what I might teach them is correct or not - yet I won't take responsibility for WHAT I TEACH!

IF I was to ever teach someone something that I assert they must learn in order to avoid dying, I would not display my hypocrisy so blatantly by immediately shoving a waiver under their nose that states that if my instruction is deficient or outright WRONG that they're just SOL when they die anyway!

I believe in strong advocacy of instruction. I believe that manufacturers should have the sort of posture that Jetsam used to have before the agencies took an approach that I argue was unlawful (a forced tied sale in order to make any sales at all!), which was quite simply that "you're insane to teach yourself how to use this and the only warranty this device has is that it is absolutely capable of killing you without warning."

Funny how during that time not ONE SINGLE PERSON perished on his unit. NOT ONE. And yet there were (according to his web site) well north of 100 units in the field.

Not one death Ron.cant let this go... Gordon would roll over if he read this, Gordon himself taught most of these people, quite informally, but when the quantity became more than he could do personally, and the attorneys insisted, he turned it over to an agency, these people were not the "masses", they were friends, and friends of friends, and very intelligent folks, much like yourself. You obviously dont know the man, I did.

Yet there was no forced instruction.

How come nobody got killed? Take your assertion and place it next to the FACTS and it becomes clear that what you assert has absolutely no basis in reality as all of the existing evidence points the other way!

I think what this has exposed is the raw hypocrisy of your perspective - "I'll teach you but I actively refuse to be responsible for what I teach, and I'll force you to take the class too if I can find a way."

I assert that your position is not about safety.

Its about money and power.pure sillyness, you dont know me, other than 15 minutes at DEMA and here online, but you insist on deciding what my motivators are, probably taken from your own emotional makeup.

And beyond that, it sets a dangerous precedent that could cause the very damage to the industry you claim to want to avoid. Failing to actually prevent deaths when you claim you can is likely to lead to ever-tighter restrictions, and those will come from the government.

There is only one sane position - and that is to instead take the stance that personal liberty and autonomy requires that both the government and industry butt out of what is inherently a personal risk and therefore personal choice.

Issue strong advice for instruction - yell, holler, scream, and push 100 page waivers under people's noses that have to be notarized or even have a lawyer sign off that he explained what it means to you before you signed it.

But - in the end analysis - if despite all the cajoling and warning someone chooses to dive - in any place and with any gear - without "advised" formal levels of instruction, if you respect individual rights and personal autonomy you are required to leave them alone.

Anyway, I have made my point, I belive its valid, several have agreed with me and some have agreed with you. I will continue to teach and you can continue to rant about the system keeping "the man" down. Nothing is perfect, especially if its created by humans, but we do the best we can.