[Skipbreather]

Hi Karl-

Kudos for starting your own thread. Those who do not appreciate your viewpoint- agree or not- simply need nor click. Cumogonism aimed your way (OK- made up word) not entirely legitimate therefor in IMHO.

For the record: I managed to NOT cack myself on Rebreather over my first several years of RB diving w/ zero formal training. All spent on various homebuilts. I was very fortunate to get advice and consult from a number of sources- notably the RB list- and added in some basic survival judgement. I’ll be the first to admit that on line mentoring may just have kept me alive. Over 30 years of OC time and a willingness to read and learn doubtless contributed as well.

Drawing the line between the clueless and freedom of choice is a tough one, but I lean towards free will. The sad fact is that common sense is just not all that common. In the end, freedom is ALWAYS paid for w/ lives. Sometimes those of the patriotic brave, sometimes those of the clueless. Good luck.

Very best,
Ken

[Genesis]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Skip breather)

Hi Karl-

Kudos for starting your own thread. Those who do not appreciate your viewpoint- agree or not- simply need nor click. Cumogonism aimed your way (OK- made up word) not entirely legitimate therefor in IMHO.

Well, the baiting was getting to be a bit much over on the other one. In that Alex was correct - thus, the attempt to put it where it belonged, and out of the pollution range. This also makes it damn difficult for anyone to justify any continuation of it over there.

Quote:

Drawing the line between the clueless and freedom of choice is a tough one, but I lean towards free will. The sad fact is that common sense is just not all that common. In the end, freedom is ALWAYS paid for w/ lives. Sometimes those of the patriotic brave, sometimes those of the clueless. Good luck.

Actually its not a tough choice at all.

Reality is that this choice, objectively taken, always favors freedom. In essentially every instance.

When we listen to those who would mislead us with promises of safety we derogate not only our freedom but the very cause we claim to be protecting, because in doing so we destroy the ability to analyze and critique that which is proffered.

Ever notice how none of the diving agencies publish their S&Ps where the public can see and comment on them? How new courses are never allowed to be debated - or commented upon - before they become "law"? Ever notice how there is no class in the diving realm that has an objective set of pass/fail criteria? Who decided that CCR classes should be unit-specific? Who decided that an OC Trimix cert had to be re-done on a CCR? By what right did the agencies demand that Jetsam force people to take a certification class to buy ANY KISS unit or they would not allow their instructors to offer a class for these units AT ALL? What was the justification for any of these positions taken?

And most importantly, why do we, as divers, tolerate this crap and raw picking of our pockets?

What originally may have sounded like a good idea has now turned from a "good recommendation" to a mandate and, in many places, it has the effective force of law.

Yet these are FOR PROFIT agencies in many cases, and in NONE OF THEM is the public given the opportunity to pass on, review, or veto their decisions!

Guys and gals, its time to put a stop to this. Five years ago it was bad. Now its obscene. You buy a Megalodon, dive it for two years, decide to sell it and get an O2ptima, and you are told you must take $4,500 worth of classes over again to be able to use that SECOND unit on the very same Trimix dives you were just doing on the other one!

There is only one way to stop it, and that is for divers as a group to put their foot down. It does not take 100% participation - if any material percentage of people say "no more, no way, we're done" the problem will go away.

You can bet I'm working on a petition for this purpose, and am exploring other opportunities as well. SOME manufacturer will see the light - whether it be an existing one (Jetsam, are you listening?) or one that has yet to show a public face.

"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." - Benjamin Franklin, 1738.

Quote:

Very best,
Ken

Thank you.

[PacketSniffer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

Ever notice how none of the diving agencies publish their S&Ps where the public can see and comment on them?

IANTD used to have them out on the public web site until this very latest revision. Now, only instructors can access them. It really pi$$ed me off when I found this out. I don't understand why the items that I will be taught in the course have got to be such a da#@ secret. I would like to know what I will be taught in the course. What really burns me up is that I don't know what the prerequisites are until I try to sign up for a course!!! Yes, I could call an instructor to find out the prerequisites. But, it seems assinine if you ask me. Why do I have to bug someone else every time I want to look up something else when I can do it myself IF I had the material?!?! It kinda makes it hard to plan. I can't plan if everything is a secret. (Geez, ok, bottled up frustration there...that rant is over...lol)

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

How new courses are never allowed to be debated - or commented upon - before they become "law"? Ever notice how there is no class in the diving realm that has an objective set of pass/fail criteria? Who decided that CCR classes should be unit-specific? Who decided that an OC Trimix cert had to be re-done on a CCR? By what right did the agencies demand that Jetsam force people to take a certification class to buy ANY KISS unit or they would not allow their instructors to offer a class for these units AT ALL? What was the justification for any of these positions taken?

Yes, you have some very good points there.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

You buy a Megalodon, dive it for two years, decide to sell it and get an O2ptima, and you are told you must take $4,500 worth of classes over again to be able to use that SECOND unit on the very same Trimix dives you were just doing on the other one!

There's no way I'm paying for something twice if I already know it. Card or no card; it ain't gonna happen.

[decoweenie]

Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09)

Oh god no.

20,000-word posts with dozens of quote-by-quote counter-arguments, pointless side-discussions, inaccurate analogies.

No, Please, no.

Young grasshopper, the point is to keep him occupied!

[EBT]

Far be it for facts to get in the way of a good debate....

IANTD Standards & Procedures

[trob09]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

You buy a Megalodon, dive it for two years, decide to sell it and get an O2ptima, and you are told you must take $4,500 worth of classes over again to be able to use that SECOND unit on the very same Trimix dives you were just doing on the other one!

Where do you get this stuff? you are out of your mind. The most you would be asked to do is a cross-over course - hardly $4,500 worth of classes. I know people who switched from one unit to another. They were trimix rebreather certified. The instructor spent 2 dives with the "student" making sure they know where the buttons and switches were. Charge for the class? exactly $0.00.

I strongly believe in individual freedom and responsibility, but please, use reality as part of your argument.

[trob09]

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Young grasshopper, the point is to keep him occupied!

Dude, that much point-counterpoint discussion would likely brown-out the net. It would certainly take down Stuart's server.

[trob09]

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

Far be it for facts to get in the way of a good debate....

IANTD Standards & Procedures

I doubt that many (if any) of us would be going to GUE for rebreather training, but they have their S&P available on line as well.

Karl appears to be fond of making sweeping proclamations without bothering to check the facts. Several months ago I challenged him to pipe down about the business practices of Rebreather manufacturers until he had 300 of his unit (at that time it was not completed) in the market. He responded, complete with bold tags and indignation, that no manufacturer had done that. It was then pointed out to him that AP valves had more than 10 times that number and that if they hadn't yet, both Jetsam and ISC would hit that number this year (which they both have).

No apolgies, no "I was mistaken", nothing. That trend appears to be continuing.

[PacketSniffer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

Far be it for facts to get in the way of a good debate....

IANTD Standards & Procedures

That's nice.

Fact: I asked for the new standards and procedures from IANTD at the DEMA booth. I was told by IANTD staff mannning the booth that the new standards and procedures could only be obtained from the professional side of the web site. This meant that you had to log in as an instructor.

Fact: The new standards and procedures are on the IANTD web server.

Question: EBT, please outline the hyperlinks that are necessary to click on to get to the 2006 standards and procedures for anyone that would be starting from here: IANTD IAND rebreathers Scuba Dive Training Agency Nitrox EANx Trimix Oxygen Rebreather Cave Wreck IANDT IAND decompression, scuba diver.

[trob09]

Quote: (Originally Posted by PacketSniffer)

That's nice.

Fact: I asked for the new standards and procedures from IANTD at the DEMA booth. I was told by IANTD staff mannning the booth that the new standards and procedures could only be obtained from the professional side of the web site. This meant that you had to log in as an instructor.

Fact: The new standards and procedures are on the IANTD web server.

Question: EBT, please outline the hyperlinks that are necessary to click on to get to the 2006 standards and procedures for anyone that would be starting from here: IANTD IAND rebreathers Scuba Dive Training Agency Nitrox EANx Trimix Oxygen Rebreather Cave Wreck IANDT IAND decompression, scuba diver.

When the 2003 update to the IANTD S&P came out they were available only to instructors until the transition period from the previous S&P was over. At that point they were made available to the public. I would expect the same to happen here although I have no confirmation of that.