Training and Standards

dgschott

If we take the following hypothetical scenario ;-) - What are the feelings of everyone about the different agencies and different S&P's?

I am Naui TriMix I&II certified, having done a lot of deep dives. I am NSS-CDS Full Cave certified, Abe Davis award in a year from completing my full cave training. IANTD Meg Certified to 140 ft.

Looking at the different courses IANTD offers, the lack of courses the NSS-CDS offers (but which I hear will be offering soon, through the grapevine). What is the proper route to go?

I was down in High Springs for a week, diving my meg. I'm not 'CAVE MEG Certified', I'm not OC DPV certified, although I have a lot of OC experience in caves on DPV's. Apparently, I can't take a NSS-CDS DPV course on my Meg, because I'm not "Meg Cave Trained", so the only option would be to go get 'cave trained' on my meg, then DPV trained, then tri mix trained... At some point this is becoming insane. How many S&P's, and how many courses do agencies need to make, and how many hoops are you expected to jump through before you're allowed to do a dive. I'd like to take a DPV course, but not on OC, since I don't dive OC anymore, but I'm not going through rebreather cave training to take a dpv course...

I feel that the agencies are seeing all these rebreather courses as a financial windfall. Sort of like how there was only one open circuit tri mix course and now look at the different classes.... I feel that it's not a safety issue anymore, but an issue of greed.

The problem with this, is that it just pisses me off. I question at this level if formal training is even needed, or if more of a mentorship style of diving is more helpful. I'm planning on diving with some well known and respected meg divers over the next few months, in which the conversation was - hey - I'll pay you to guide and informally train me - I want to be the best, safest diver I can be - but taking one class after the next doesn't equate to that. Experience, mentorship, and knowledge equate to that, which you can get without having to take one class after another every time an agency decides on a whim to add more classes.

Would the idea of being able to 'challenge' amclass, where, for example, if I want to 'challenge' a cave rebreather class, I go on a dive with a certified instructor, go through the drills, and if they deem I'm competent, you pass?

I'm not just ripping the NSS-CDS, or IANTD... It's just that my personal experiences have been with those agencies. I know that John Jones is on here a lot, a would like to hear the explanation and thought process of this - and also what and how other rebreather world members proceed on thier rebreathers... If I recall there was a poll recently about training and
-mix diving, and a lot of divers diving trimix on their rebreathers were not formally trained....

__________________
David Schott
Liquid Productions, LLC

Jordan

First, I would like to admit that I am a Rebreather newb and haven't thought about/researched S&P's as much as I'm sure a lot of others have... but my $.02 follows.

With Rebreather's gaining popularity so quickly, I feel some changes are going to be needed. As far as I know (looking at IANTD courses, because that's what my cert is through), the CCR cave/trimix certification is the same class. This bewilders me, as I'd assume many of the instructors who teach the class don't know squat about cave diving. I would say they should take a step back and develop a CCR cave course and a CCR trimix course, with each class focusing on that particular style of diving.

Example, say a diver with very little (or no) cave diving experience/training who wants to get trimix CCR/cave certified comes to take the class in NFL or Mexico where caves are pretty much the only option to dive in. Well, this person's class would be a week long, and throughout that week long class they would be learning how to cave dive. They would need that entire week to learn line techniques, communication, finning techniques, buddy management, navigation, etc as applied to cave diving. As any trained cave diver knows, a week is probably about the minimum to safely learn how to cave dive. Being on a CCR has nothing to do with all of that. So, how do they find the time to teach specifics related to CCR trimix diving in that class too? There's only so much time in the day to get all of the info across, and I just don't see how it could be done.

Again, I haven't taught these classes, so I admit I am not the most informed person in regards to this, but it just seems like there is something wrong with combining the two classes.

__________________
Is it clear? No. Well, let's go anyways.

"Those who would sacrifice a little freedom for a little order, will lose both, and deserve neither." Thomas Jefferson

dgschott

IANTD has many different Rebreather classes - but I believe that the trimix class is different from the cave course. I know a few people who have only taken the tri mix course....

Do you think that someone who is OW rebreather trained, and has full cave cert, needs a week long course on how to dive a rebreather in a cave?

__________________
David Schott
Liquid Productions, LLC

Jordan

Well, I would hope that they're different. Do I wonder if an OC cave diver should have to take a week long course? I don't think so -- from my understanding, you learn the same stuff that you do in the trimix course... so how long does that course take? I guess it should be the same amount of time as that class.... it's just that combining the two (if the student is not cave trained to start with) doesn't work.

__________________
Is it clear? No. Well, let's go anyways.

"Those who would sacrifice a little freedom for a little order, will lose both, and deserve neither." Thomas Jefferson

trob09

and vice-versa. I took CCR cave before I was CCR trimix (I was OC Trimix with no cave experience)

I don't think so. When I did my CCR cave class with Tom, he mentioned that the CCR cave class included the Normoxic Trimix material. I'm not sure if this is still true after the change in Standards.

You may want to make sure you have your bail-out sorted, but that's relatively simple (IMO)

nigelh

I wanted to try cave so I started with 'Cavern' (muppet cave). I picked the instructor not the agency and he said he'd rather do it on OC so I did it on OC. I don't think there is much difference other than the bailout scenarios. Laying, following and recovering line in zero vis must be much the same on any kit although getting the loop over my head when it's covered in torches might be a snag kitting up if I do things in the wrong order.

I'd like to go back next year and do the next level up but I'll use the kit he wants to teach on because I want to learn what he can teach. I ended up with a PSA card which was a new one on me.

__________________
nigelh

mattmexico

yo

I guess where the most of the through the hoops perception is coming from is the fact that the liability issue is heavy on every ones shoulder might it be the land owner as in case of Ginnie, the training agency, the instructor or the dive guide. They require, want or need to see that specific c-card.

I do feel that going from one to the other some degree of training or familiarizing is needed, some of the emergency exercises done on OC should be repeated on CCR as well as the CCR specific emergency scenarios should be done in the cave environment.

It may sounds a little extensive but well .. that's the way I feel ..

And I do understand the way some of you feel paying up for training again and again .... but it could safe your live one day ...

It is correct that there is a discussion going on within the NSS-CDS to accomodate CCR training in caves.

greetings
Matt

__________________
N 20' 37.617'
W 87' 04.693'
www.andreaswmatthes.com

Genesis

Oh boy are you in for an earful.... although I suspect we agree pretty much already!
I believe this is true in general when it comes to diving.

But in this specific instance, most certainly so.

One of the most offensive parts of this in the context of rebreathers is how all these classes are unit-specific.

Its a "Megalodon CCR" certification, not a "CCR" cert, and is worth exactly zero if you decide you'd like a Titan, Inspiration, Prism, or O2ptima! The class is tied to the hardware, and to specific hardware besides.

For instance, there is no such thing as a card for a Megalodon with the new Shearwater controller. The factory doesn't make that configuration; as such, there is no cert for it. Ditto if you take a KISS and put a setpoint controller in it. Or if you replace the Inspiration electronics with the Hammerhead. Or if you build your OWN electronics!

This is, quite honestly, insane.

First principles here: There should be no cards required at all. That doesn't mean that it should not be recommended that you learn - quite to the contrary - but how you learn should be entirely up to you. After all, its your ass down there.

How many of us have seen someone with a fistful of cards who can't dive worth crap? I have - at all levels of diving, including cave and wreck penetration. How many people have gotten themselves killed by violating basic safety guidelines, yet they knew what they were? A bunch.

Cave diving is cave diving. Wreck diving is wreck diving. Is there really a difference in bail scenarios, for example, between CCR and OC? Hell no! If you're 2000' back in a cave you either have enough gas to get out if your "primary" system (whatever that may be) fails or you die. This is in no way different if your "primary gas" consists of doubles with an isolator, a sidemount set of bottles or a CCR! Either way, if you have a failure you either brought a way to keep breathing or can protect enough of what you started with to get out or Darwin claims another one.

This is basic overhead stuff. If you're diving a CCR then you need enough gas to get your own sorry butt out of there if your CCR fails. This means either a bailout rebreather or OC stage(s).

The DPV nonsense is the same sort of game-playing. There is no magic to using a DPV. Gas planning isn't any more complicated - the numbers are DIFFERENT, but its not "more complex." How about you do a few dives with the DPV progressively going in and coming out with it stowed, figuring out your consumption when done that way, before you go blasting 5,000' upstream? As for dealing with a runaway and towing a partner, gee, do you think you might want to practice that (and your trim!) in open water first? This is complicated? I think not. (Yes, I dive with a DPV, and no, I don't have a card for it.) How'd I do it? Exactly that way. I didn't stick my head in a hole with a DPV until I was able to run along the surface of a wreck at a foot or two off the deck with a video camera in the other hand and neither hit anything or stir up a silt cloud behind me. When I could do that consistently in open water, THEN I was comfortable poking my head a short distance inside a hole with one, then swimming out, looking at my gas requirements to do so (then doubling them to cover being wanked if things went sideways for real.) And so on.

So how'd we end up here?

Its your fault. Your meaning collectively - not individually. And to some extent its mine as well, even though I'm the poster child (it would appear) of the "anti-card" crowd - simply because I have some.

What's worse is that we (collectively again) keep painting ourselves into a corner by accepting this paradigm. We believe the bullship that you need a card to dive (you used to be able to buy gear out of the Sears Catalog and still can from Leisurepro, including compressors - no card required!) We then believe the bullship that you need a card for Nitrox, "advanced" open water, "rescue" (one of the biggest jokes of a class I've ever had the "pleasure" of taking) cavern, "deco procedures", etc. The list goes on.

What was no card (read Sheck's Blue Book and find someone to mentor you, learn progressively, etc) has turned into FOUR REQUIRED classes. Cavern/Intro/Apprentice/Full. WTF?! Then you add to that Deco Procedures, Normoxic and Advanced Trimix! That's seven classes, just to be able to optimize your decompression and gas selection, then go dive in a cave! Oh, and you "can't" use your DPV yet.

That, at roughly $500 per class, could easily be four thousand dollars worth of classes - and that assumes you've already learned how to dive!

In the CCR world its worse. You have each class that's unit specific, so if you buy a new unit you get to start over.

There its $1500 per, more or less, and there are three - Mod 1 (air), Mod 2 (normoxic) and Mod 3 (hypoxic dil). Mod 1 is a class that shouldn't exist at all unless it has a sixty foot depth limit, because there is simply no argument for not running 21/35 in the diluent tank of a rebreather on any dive - its cheap as hell on a Rebreather, it can be dove on an air table, its easier to breathe and in the "air diving" range its non-narcotic.

So you spend your $4,500, PLUS you then have to take a "Cave CCR" class, and suddenly you've got $6,000 worth of training! That's damn close to what an O2ptima costs "bare", its more than a KISS, and its more than virtually all second-hand units you might buy.

If you decide you don't like the Meg, you get to do it all over again for a second unit! And a third, and fourth, and......

Gee, that's a damn nice racket!

But it gets better! Not all that long ago I did a nice scooter dive with a guy who I like. It wasn't anything complex; it was his first dive in a particular place, so we did a nice leisurely dive up the mainline, breathing only a (single) stage and reserving ALL backgas. Very conservative, turned and came out. Great experience.

Not long after, he decided to "go pro." Suddenly he can't dive with my any more if I use my DPV, because I don't have a DPV card. His agency's rules say that he CANNOT dive with me without risking his pro rating, EVEN IF HE IS DOING IT ON HIS OWN TIME AND NOT IN ANY INSTRUCTIONAL ROLE! What sort of bullship is that? He's now PROHIBITED from providing (if he is willing to) mentoring beyond someone's formal training level? Oh boy that's rich - now those who proffer themselves as "professionals" are barred from doing it any other way than for money!

You know what we call someone who only does it for money, right? That would be the common name for the oldest profession on earth.

What about the claim that "its for the good of the sport"? Well, let's look at that for a minute.

Diving is a uniquely individual risk. Its obvious to anyone with more than two working neurons in their head that we're not meant to live underwater. We have lungs instead of gills, for openers. So we strap on anywhere from 40 to well north of 100lbs of crap to go where God never intended us to.

Is it not freaking obvious that if anything goes wrong with that stuff your life expectancy could be as short as four minutes? I think so. Ok, end part 1.

Now, part 2. "Its bad for the sport". How? Someone "has to" come recover my dead ass? Why? Is that not voluntary? It sure is! David Shaw didn't have to go to 1000 feet to rescue the dead diver down there. He decided to go of his own free will, just like the dead guy originally had decided to go in that hole of HIS own free will. Nobody makes anyone else get in the water. Getting the picture yet? This risk is uniquely personal!

Second, you cannot put forward a public policy that says "oh we can make this non-dangerous" and then when you fail blame people for not being careful enough. The truth is as above - this is a damn dangerous thing to do. Period! Its like climbing mountains - screw up, you die. Period. But - so what? The proper "face" to put on this for the public is that (1) we choose of our own free will to get in the water, [2] we know its dangerous to do so and if something goes wrong we either sort it out or die, and [3) we, of sound mind, choose to go anyway - now leave us the hell alone!

Take that position and suddenly a dead diver is no different than someone who eats at McDonalds every day for 20 years, "supersizes" themselves and has a heart attack. You decide to eat 4,365 quarter pounders with cheese, you make yourself into a 400lb pig and now you're dead. Same with smoking tobacco. You have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to make these choices AND you have the right to demand to be left the hell alone!

How'd we get where we are today in diving?

We (collectively) allowed it.

We allowed the incremental gamesmanship. We allowed agencies to decree a "separate card" for Nitrox. We allowed a separate card for "advanced" open water, and the dumbing down of the original OW curriculum (look at what the YMCA used to teach for "open water" and how long it used to take!) We allowed separate classes (FOUR, no less!) for cave diving. We allowed Trimix to be declared a "voodoo gas" and a separate card set developed for that.

And now what have we sown for our lack of vision? An industry that has managed to actually get the force of LAW behind some of their bullship. Try to dive Peacock solo. You can get arrested! Ditto if you don't have the "right card." Yet there is zero evidence that solo diving is actually more dangerous than buddy diving, and plenty of evidence that is either inconclusive or goes the other way! (What is clearly dangerous is thinking you have a buddy when in fact you really don't!) You will get thrown out of Ginnie for trying to dive doubles on an Intro card - even though many of us (myself included) took the class in doubles and had been diving them for an extended period of time up front, and never mind that not all agency cards prohibit their use (TDI, for example, does not.) We have agencies that push for private owners of land to restrict access and require proof of training and waivers, when in fact in Florida it is THE LAW that you cannot sue - period - for an accident that happens while you are on private (or public) land so long as you were not charged an admission fee (ref: FAC 373.1395 and FS 375.251)

I've had this discussion with a major technical agency. I was told, off the record, that the reason that agencies exist and issue cards is to cover the ass of the instructors. This didn't come from conjecture - it was the blunt, no-bull assessment of the President of an actual technical diving agency!

So - we have agencies lying to landowners in order to promote the instructors ability to make money. We have agencies that exist for the explicit purpose of giving instructors cover. We have an industry of agencies and instructors that we as divers have enabled to exist and grow so that they can retroactively impose more and more restrictions on us and pick our pockets to meet ever-tightening constraints, and what's worse, we've actually allowed some of this to bleed down into actual "we'll draw guns and shoot" LAWS!

Can we fix it?

You betcha.

A few years ago I declared war on the "no parts" policies for open circuit gear. I found that there was actually nothing in the dealer agreements that prohibited parts sales over the counter. It was nothing other than a way to force people to pony up for labor charges every year! Nice, eh? But who takes your place and dies for you when the shop screws up the reg rebuild? Nobody! Anyone ever had a rental reg that breathed like a firehose? I have. You think I want that very same shop screwing with my gear? I think not!

Anyway, that war has basically been won. There are now multiple brands and options available for parts. To a large degree, the price-fixing war (which I also took on) has basically been won too.

I built the K1, in part, to prove that there is an option available at a reasonable cost to those who are tired of being bent over the table. Reproducing the loop is a trivial exercise - you can build one without an oxygen controller and displays for less than $2,000, including a BOV, or $1,500 if you're satisfied with a "regular" DSV. That's buying all the "dive stuff" absolutely at retail (manual adds, drysuit OPV, Nielsen Sessions latches, etc) and it requires no special tooling - not even a drill press, although that makes it easier.

Now add the O2 system of your choice. 3 sensors + display + KISS-style valve (from Hydrogom) = under $1,000 more. You're done and out the door for under $3,000 (plus regs, backplate, wing, etc) That's quantity one.

Build it, test it on the couch, test it AGAIN in the pool, test it AGAIN in shallow water, KNOW how it works because you put the fool thing together.

Now give the finger to the industry.

If we had even a small percentage of people who did this, and we pulled up in our trucks to Ginnie and when told "sorry, no card no dive" we said "F* you, we'll go to Little River instead!" - or even better - go rent a pontoon boat, pull up in the river run (this is perfectly legal although Ginnie wishes it wasn't), drop an anchor and dive away - while flipping the bird to their security staff - the problem would disappear. If Connie gets told to shove it a few times and suddenly there are 10 pontoons anchored in the run full of divers - all with scooters and no DPV cards - you can bet her attitude would change in a big damn hurry. Hell, she might decide to actually do something about the rampant gear theft problem there instead of worrying about what sort of wristband you have on!

Even better, tell Connie you're going to drive up to Marianna. Bring a SMALL pontoon boat or rent one of Edd's. Guess what? You have access to caves that cannot be controlled because they are on navigable water (just like Ginnie is if you come by boat) and the people there want you around. No card, no problem. And again - tell Ginnie-cum-laude where you are going and why, do it in writing, and CC the Gilchrist County Commission - tell 'em you're taking YOUR tourist money where someone appreciates it.

Then tell the NACD and NSS/CDS to stuff it. I refused to renew my NSS/CDS membership a couple of years ago over exactly this sort of hypocrisy.

(Oh, by the way, Hole In the Wall and Twin are easily two of the nicer caves I've dove, and if you swim under the fence - legal provided you do not tie up your boat to the dock or set foot on land - you can get into Jackson Blue without any card-checking nonsense either - arguably far nicer than Ginnie will ever be! If you have any form of overhead card - Intro or better - you can go by the sheriff's office, pay $25, get a key and dive Jackson Blue from land - no BS, no hassles, just pay 'yer money and have a good time.)

If the shops start demanding cards down there to get the fills you want (they've so far left me alone) then cart a couple of full "80s" and a transfill whip, and just get air tops. Screw 'em. If you were to get together with your buddies and buy a compressor, you can give the finger to your dive store entirely. Buy a boat between three or four of you - for many areas like South Florida it doesn't have to be a BIG or EXPENSIVE boat - and you can give the finger to the charter guys TOO. Tell your friends and invite them out on your PRIVATE vessel - no cards required. You think this is not cost-effective? Nonsense - at $100/trip it sure as hell is in a hurry! Dive 20 times in a year and that's $2,000. Get three or four guys together on a boat and $5k will do the job for a small older vessel that's quite capable. Bingo - in one year you paid for it, and from then on you keep the money in YOUR pocket. Make damn sure you tell the local shops WHY you're doing it too, so they know EXACTLY how much of your money they're NOT getting.

Organize groups of divers and, effectively, initiate a boycott. Take the business where its wanted and give the finger to those who desire to pick your pocket. Make damn sure you carbon the County Commissions and Tourism Bureaus while you're at it too, so they know you're not only doing it but encouraging others to as well.

Next, tell the manufacturers you will not buy until they require only one sort of card to make your purchase - and that card has numbers on it, not agency names. Tell the boat operators you'll dive off a friend's boat - or your own - instead of theirs until they stop supporting this crap.

All the arguments about "liability" are nonsense. There are well-understood ways for a dive boat operator, for example, to make themselves immune from judgment and thus a VERY unattractive lawsuit target. Nobody sues if there's no chance of collecting - you have to pay your lawyer to file and press it in that case, and that ain't what drives the system! As soon as there's a few million in insurance then there's a million (or few) reasons to sue.

The power is, in fact, ours.

We ceded it originally but we can take it back. Starve the monster of money and it'll suddenly get far more reasonable. Classes will become suggested instead of required. Businesses will require waivers (and there's no problem with them either), but nothing more. Around Florida, at least, this is more than good enough - dive waivers are absolutely enforceable. Other jurisdictions that want people to actually come and dive can either conform or lose. WE hold the power - WE have the wallets.

The only question is whether or not we care enough to do something about this or whether we want to continue to be raped at will.

When training becomes voluntary then and only then will the options become rational both in suggested "requirements" and pricing.

Only by cutting the legs out from under the "required" crowd can this problem be solved.

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
http://www.denninger.net
http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket

dgschott

Wow Genesis.... Impressive.... I think we're going to get along just fine.... After this last little DPV stint, where apparently I'm forbidden to take a DPV class (which, by the way, I'd like to take) unless I have my full cave rebreather cert....... I've decided to screw it - I'm going for the mentoring side of diving, with specific professional divers, and that's it. I'm not spending another cent on a specific course. It's thier loss for being dictators. I can use my dpv at other places besides Ginny, or avoid the big scuba policeman....... I'm just tired of all of this nonsense....

__________________
David Schott
Liquid Productions, LLC

Genesis

Exactly.

For Ginney specifically, find someone with a pontoon boat, motor up the run and drop an anchor. End of problem. So long as you do not set foot on their land this is perfectly legal - the river and run are navigable waterways.

Connie has a shizfit when people do this but there is not a thing she can do about it, and what's even better, you don't have to pay them when you do this either!

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
http://www.denninger.net
http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket