Training and Standards

Captain Randy · 6th December 2006, 21:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr)

and class room lecture should be banned. write a decent book and give a test.

rick

Some people can learn from a book others need the lecture, graphics and even the debate that classrooms foster.

Randy

Genesis · 6th December 2006, 22:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by dantheman)

This is an under-rated motivation.

The folks who complain (not without some merit) about proliferation of certs
should understand (even if they can't/won't sympathise) with this attitude.
IMO, it is common to most tech instructors. It certainly is for me.

--dan

I don't care how much money is being charged. That is not the point.

The point is that "what you have is never enough", and the incessant nannyism.

dgschott · 6th December 2006, 22:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

I don't care how much money is being charged. That is not the point.

The point is that "what you have is never enough", and the incessant nannyism.

Right on - I totally agree.... I have no problems spending any amount of money for the training that I want or need. I'll be down in High Springs paying money for an Instructor to 'guide' me. I want to perfect my CCR cave skills, I want to be safe, but I don't want to be forced into one certification after another. In essence, I'm paying for someone to help me out, pick out my problem areas, help me correct them, teach me new things, for instance, maybe deeper tri-mix cave dives (if I'm ready). I'm willing to pay for someone's time to help me, to mentor me, to make sure I have the skills needed for any particular dive I'm planning to do.

My point is that it can be done informally, on a one on one basis, and be just as or more helpful then spending a bunch of money on particular specialized classes, just so I can take another class so I can avoid being arrested by the scuba police.

Is a new "CCR Cave Course" written by the CDS needed? I would suggest asking the Board of Directors to vote against such additional classes. I would like to see the CDS keep it's tradition of offering a great cave course, reagardless of what type of equiment you're using.

Even if they do offer a CCR Cave course - is it going to be unit specified? Do I want someone who only dives an Optima Rebreather teaching me a CCR Cave class on my Meg? How's that going to work? Or is the CCR Cave class only going to offered to Optima divers? ;-)

As an addition - Joe - I have no personal experience with your agency, teaching, or standards. I was trained through an instructor through IANTD, and did not find that the skills and procedures for IANTD's Meg Training card very hard to get through, and I still practice them often. I have also heard from friends who have taken the trimix course from the same instructor, and after hearing the skills involved, it doesn't strike me as rocket science. Maybe you truly go further and beyond other instructors. I'd love to get in the water sometime with you and go for a dive to see what you think. I might learn something new!

***jradomski*** · 7th December 2006, 04:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by dgschott)

As an addition - Joe - I have no personal experience with your agency, teaching, or standards. I was trained through an instructor through IANTD, and did not find that the skills and procedures for IANTD's Meg Training card very hard to get through, and I still practice them often. I have also heard from friends who have taken the trimix course from the same instructor, and after hearing the skills involved, it doesn't strike me as rocket science. Maybe you truly go further and beyond other instructors. I'd love to get in the water sometime with you and go for a dive to see what you think. I might learn something new!

NO ONE knows everything.. If you keep an open mind there is always new stuff or insights to pick up.. I know I try and learn from every experience I have with another diver or student and then try and pass that experience onto the next person..

Genesis · 7th December 2006, 04:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by dgschott)

Is a new "CCR Cave Course" written by the CDS needed? I would suggest asking the Board of Directors to vote against such additional classes. I would like to see the CDS keep it's tradition of offering a great cave course, reagardless of what type of equiment you're using.

I have no problem with any class offering so long as the choice to take it is made 100% voluntarily by the diver, and there is no sanction or bar placed before him which is lifted IF he takes the class.

That is, offer 5,000 different classes if you want - I have no objection.

Bar me from diving somewhere until I take any number of the above, I do.

And if you think this won't happen here, you're wrong. It will. Ginnie is very likely to think that this "CCR class" should be a requirement, just like they suddenly decided that doubles were "verboten" for intro divers - even though many trained in doubles and not all agencies bar them at that level!

But as soon as you can make some money, well, then magically you start forcing people to take the class in order to dive.

There is one - and only one - way to stop this, and that is for divers to decide they're not going to pay - period - so long as the class - any class - is forced upon them as a condition of access.

Diving without any training whatsoever is less dangerous than other activities that are ensconced as a fundamental civil right according to our US Supreme Court.

That should be the beginning and end of it, and it places the solution to these problems firmly within the grasp of all divers - we just need to decide to act in concert to effect the necessary change. I suspect it would take less than a month were we to collectively organize a boycott.

Can you stay out of the water for a month in order to insure that your pocket is not picked, now or in the future?

Realize that its not just the commercial diving venue itself (the boats and/or the sites such as Ginnie) - its also all the other businesses you don't spend money at. The hotel, the eatery, the fuel you don't buy in town, the gas you don't buy at Rennakers, etc. You pay $20 to dive at Ginnie but I bet you spend $100+ a day in total - or more. If we organize something like this a shizload of letters hitting the local media outlets, the County Commission and the Chamber of Commerce go as well - I guarantee you that will get their attention, especially if the boycott at a particular location is "until you fix it" - and the impact is both felt and real.

Should divers decide they've had enough, I have a petition fax system that works. It sure as hell got Sandy's - and the rest of park management's - attention over at the Wakulla State Park during the Cheryl/Emerald fiasco (which we won, by the way!)

Remember guys - we have the money, they want some of it. To get it we get to set the rules - not the other way around.

dgschott · 7th December 2006, 05:56

Ok - Let's see here.... Where do I start.....

1.) After having a great chat with Gene Melton - I was advised as to why John Jones has not been replying to this thread - And that is because CDS board member aren't alowed too, period. Even if it's the individual's opinion - and that individual is on the board, they can't comment. So, with that said - John will not be replying to any comments on this thread, and I will stop asking him to, and would like to apologize for not having the knowledge that CDS members are not allowed to talk policy in a public forum.

2.) I still believe that the S&P's allow a CCR diver to take a DPV course without a CCR Cave Course. There's nothing in the S&P's that state that since there isn't a CDS CCR Cave course.... On top of that, add to the fact that I sidemount my bailout, well.... There are a lot of options, and Gene or I will be having further discussions about this with John Jones and or my instructor.

3.) As far as the CDS CCR Cave Speciality course. I agree with Genesus on that, and told Gene that it is my prediction that Ginny and other places will quickly forbid CCR divers without that course to dive rebreathers. Just as they have done with DPV's. Apparently there is a difference, in that cave conservation is equated to using scooters, and that is the reason Ginny cares about it. I hope they don't and discussing this with Gene, it's a possibility they won't due to various legal issues. I still won't believe it until I see it.

4.) I would like to see the S&P's for the new Cave CCR class posted in a public forum, in which comments can be made. It would be nice for the members of the CDS to see and have input on what happens within our organization. Once again, I'm not sure if that will happen, but I think it would be a good gesture and interesting to see what is going to be voted on during the January CDS meeting. How else can we advise the Board our feelings, and they should be working for us.

5.) We need more people to become involved within the CDS. If you're not a member, and are a cave diver - JOIN! (Genesis) ;-) I have always taken a back seat attitude - the leave me alone, I want to have fun, dive, and not get involved in what appears to be crazyness down in cave country. After chatting with Gene, and watching the interesting debate on this thread - I have changed my mind. I will glady get involved and do as much as I possibly can do - for the best of the CDS and it's members (note - the CDS is NOT a training organization, although it's headed in that direction - it is an organization of cave divers)

6.) I'm excited to get down to high springs and do some more diving. I'm even more excited to have the opportunity to be learning more, diving with excellent rebreather instructor. I agree with Joe - that there's always more to be learned, and I strive for perfection, which although I know doesn't exist - keeps goals high, and anything that can make any of us better divers is definately a good thing.

7.) I'm planning on attending the January CDS meeting, and looking forward to that as well. I would ask other members of the CDS, that are rebreather divers to do the same. If they pass the CCR Cave course, let's at least get the most input that we can. If it's not up to acceptable standards, or if there are serious problems with the course, I would hope that it will not be passed by either the training committee or the board. I think it would be interesting to what the impressions of seasoned, veteran rebreather divers are about the S&P's, as well as seeing them ourselves. I don't know who or if anyone has seen the new S&P's that aren't on the CDS Board or Training Committee and would be available to comment. It would certainly be interesting to hear what the Mounts, Bozanics, Heinerths of the world think about the new course.

8.) Is there any interest in looking at what the S&P's should be, advice on what should be in them, what shouldn't be in them? (I know - it's tough without seeing them) - But I'm sure John is reading this thread, and there is time to talk about this new course. For instance - I would like to see a line that states (and I'm not a lawyer) something to the effect that the CDS strongly recommends CCR divers to take the clase, but that it's not a mandatory cave class, it's classified as a specialty course, and anyone with cave certification and rebreather certification should not be restricted or constrained in any cave diving activity. Or something to that effect.....

rdmmdr · 7th December 2006, 06:04

Guys

Tech Diving Is Not A New Thing It Just Has Become A Popular Thing. We Where Diving Twin Sets In The 70,s. And We Managed To Do It Without Killing Ourselves Using Single Regs And Horse Collar Bc's. Smb We Did Not Have And Reels Where Not Even Considered Except For Cave Dives.

Nitrox Was Initially Considered A Cool Thing But The Real Divers Knew How To Maintain Control While Narced. I Checked My Log Book Over Four Thousand Dives And I Can Remember One Narced Related Bailout.sharm In 1986 Three Divers, About 140ft New Guy Paniced And Headed To The Surface. I Caught Him At About 80 Ft And Stopped The Accent. He Headed For The Surface At A Reasonable Rate From There On. No Injury's.

Conclusion:
Don't Dive With Morons, And Never Dive With A Club Med Cert Diver.

Having Done My First Dive In 1965, Mother Pregnant With Me. My Next Dive Was At Ten In 1976, The Divers On The Boat Got Tired Of Being Caught In My Fishing Line. I Have Seen The Gear Get Better And The Cert Agencies Get Worse, It Has Stopped Being A Matter Of Diver Safety And Become A Profit Center.

I Challenge Any Instructor Out There To Tell Me What Are The Open Water Skills Required For Basic One Tank Nitrox. None, But They All Require A Two Dive Class.

In The Days It Was Developed Aow Was The Current Tune Up Course Now Being Offered, Because We All Were Cleared For The Depths With The Training Required.

Trimix Limits

21/35 Mix Is Air Compatible For Deco And Limits The Diver Impairment, If The Cert Agencies Where All About Diver Safety They Would Require Its Use. But According To Them You Can Only Do This If You Write Them A Check For 750.00$.

Rick

Mike · 7th December 2006, 09:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I can't speak for every instructor, but I have worked with many experienced CCR divers (including instructors), and NOT ONE passed my skill evaluation dive on the first shot, inluding divers that hold a "mod 2" rating wishing to take full trimix or instructors crossing over,

And what exactly are we supposed to assume from this?
a: that instructors from other agencies are crap divers and not up to andi standards?
b: That the skill evaluation includes tasks like winding in a reel whilst buddy breathing with both you and your buddy blindfolded (ie something completely not relevant that's just made up to get people to fail)?
c: that you have an incentive to fail people so as that you can hold this statistic up in support of how good the andi course is?
d: that students would query why they needed to pay for the class if they passed?
e: that you wouldn't let anyone certified by another agency dive with you / off your boat etc. because you think they are all unsafe?

Seriously - if 'experienced divers' can successfully complete (I'm assuming here) many thousand dives between them, then is there any reality in saying that their skills are not up to standard?
What are you trying to train people for - successfully enjoy a dive (obviously they can do that allready as they are 'experienced') or to look great on a training video?

Jo - I'm sure that you teach a great course, and it's one I'd learn heaps from, but I'm afraid that I fall on the side of agreeing that forcing people to have to complete an agencies course (while agencies compete to see who can come up with the course most difficult to pass so they can make the claim you do above) before they are ALLOWED to dive somewhere, is simply profiteering.

Mike

rdmmdr · 7th December 2006, 10:10

PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY, THAT WITH FIVE HOURS OF INSTRUCTION I CAN SOLO AN AIRPLANE. AND AFTER 40 HOURS OF TIME FLYING , PLUS SAY 16 OF GROUND SCHOOL I CAN TEST FOR MY LICENSE. THAT THE CERT AGENCIES SAY WE NEED 100 HRS PLUS INSTRUCTION, FROM OPEN WATER TO CCR NOT INCLUDING THE MANDATORY EXPERIENCE DIVES IN THE MIDDLE.

I JUST CHECKED IANTD WEB SITE THEY ARE OFFERING 38 SEPARATE CARDS NOT COUNTING THE CARDS FOR DIFFERENT REBREATHERS, THIS HAS GOTTEN TO THE POINT OF INSANITY. BUT I HAVE SOME SUGGESTIONS FOR NEW CARDS FOR THEM

OW SCUBAPRO MK15 ONLY WITH DIVERITE WINGS. , REQUIRED 150.00 COURSE FOR CROSS TRAINING TO THE OXYCHECK WING, WITH TWO CHECK OUT DIVES.

OW BOAT DIVE SPECIALTY / WITH A SUB SPECAILTY ON SEA SICKNESS PREVENTION. TWO TRIPS TO THE RAIL REQUIRED/ THREE IF YOU FORGET AND GO TO THE WINDWARD SIDE.

CARE AND MAINTANCE OF DRY SUIT PEE VALVES/ COURSE MATERIAL TO INCLUDE THREE POTS OF COFFEE JUST TO ENSURE YOU HAVE A PROPER UNDERSTANDING OF THE OPERATIONAL USE OF THE ITEM.

DIVE LIGHT BATTERY CHANGING 101/ MATERIALS REQUIRED ARE TWO LIGHTS ONE OF WHICH WILL BE FLOODED JUST TO SHOW YOU WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF YOU FORGET TO LUBE THE ORINGS.

UNDERWATER AROBICS/ COURSE REQUIREMNTS INCLUDE A ONE MILE SWIN WITH TWO BAILOUT 80S, A 120 TWINSET, WHILE TOWING A FLOODED DPV. AND BUDDY BREATHING USING AN OLD TWIN HOSE.

DIVE GEAR PIMP / FOR THOSE INSTRUCTORS WHO JUST CAN'T WAIT TO TELL YOU WHAT A PIECE OF S--T YOU ARE USING/ COURSE MATERIALS REQIURED THE TEE SHIRT OF YOUR FAVORITE VENDOR/ NOT THE ONE YOU HAD LAST YEAR, THIER STUFF IS GARBAGE NOW. AND I NEED TO REPLACE MY ENTIRE OUTFIT.

RICK

***jradomski*** · 7th December 2006, 10:24