Training and Standards

Kostas Christou · 6th December 2006, 17:04

Hello from Greece!

I really didn't intend to participate in any kind of forum on the net (the message on the top of my screen has been there for many months), but I believe this short note should be sent to a person with quite the same beliefs and actions like mine.
It's actually a good thing to read your posts, they should be very seriously studied by every diver - every "free in depth" or "diver of my own" I could say!
Karl I share the same attitude towards the training organisations, having also attended for many years the war in Europe between CMAS-local Federations and most overseas orgs like PADI, NAUI etc.
After having a good inside idea about how the industry and training orgs work, I also decided to follow all these years the route of self suficiancy and in practice solo diving most of the time, even when with other mates and even more for deep diving and photographing.
I have been diving OC for the last three decades, and nitrox-trimix since 1996. I have developed my two homebuilt RBs KISS style and successfully diving them for the last four years, after spending some time before with a Biopak60 O2 modified and a FenzyPO68.
I use my backworn KISS Rebreather with a VR3 Jetsam double O2 display and Rebreather Guardian HUD with two sellectable setpoints (1.2 and 1.0) and 3 R22D sensors successfully up to 80m.
My other unit is a LARV modified with the RBG HUD and VR3 also successfully used up to 50m, very lite and shest worn, even as a bailout unit.
This is the point to pay credentials to a fantastic person, Uri Baran the supplier of the RBG HUD, who has given the perfect aid for taking the most from my RBs and actually use them for what they were made : photography.

Well Karl, congratulations again for your article and keep up with the good work!
If you ever plan to visit our seas, I would be glad to show you Greece above and below the sea.

Best regards,
Kostas

**trob09** · 6th December 2006, 17:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

So do I.

If the diver is well prepared, the advanced courses are actually more pleasurable to conduct since it is more of a fine-tuning course.

The beginner courses are always more difficult and involve more work in general since the instructor has to go thru almost everything (most of the time). Once in a while, you would get a group of well-prepared and good divers, then it is fun as you could push them a bit more than usual...

Having said that, sometimes you would get somene has all the official credentials (i.e. C-cards) to take the advanced course, but not the knowledge or skills. Then you wonder how did this person passed those prerequisite courses in the first place.

So having the right cards doesn't necessary mean having the right skills 100% of the time, but it does help to associate one for the other most of the time.

I concur.

I know more than a few people with advanced certifications that I wouldn't buddy-up with in a kiddie pool.

For me the big trifecta is skill-set, knowledge and mindset. I find it less and less forgivable to have deficiencies as you move from skills to knowledge to mindset. Skills can be taught and learned. Knowledge can be acquired with experience. Mindset is up to the diver, not the agency or the instructor.

Sadly, I often find myself lacking in all three.

***jradomski*** · 6th December 2006, 18:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

One entry level example (purely fictive).... When I'm OC qualified as Advanced Recreational Tx diver (48m/15min acc deco limits) and ANDI L2 KISS certified and want to become ANDI L3 CCR (normoxic Tx and max depth 50m and deco ceiling max=9m or something along that lines)
Then I think you could safely state that I should have covered all the theory... To verify that 1 exam taking 1hours ?
?

A few things.. First at this point the ANDI L3 CCR is NOT a trimix cert, its a decompression training program.. The limits are 30 minutes of deco to 50m (air diluent).. There will be an adder in the near future for a limited trimix addon (similiar to our "technical trimix"..)

I wrote the current ANDI L3 ccr program, and I am confident that the previous cert you mentioned does not cover much of the materials in the ANDI L3 program.. Having a full trimix rating still wouldnt cover you either..

Right now there is no L3 ccr specific exam (I havent gotten around to writing one) right now the basic planning is tested by the L3 oc exam, the rebreather specific stuff is "quizzed" by the instructor (usually by the questions I wrote for them in the "inhouse" manual).. This procedure has worked well, but its time for an official exam.. The exam and support materials for the l3 program I should have finished by early next year..

I have an inhouse text that is used by the instructors as a reference that will become available as an official textbook also probably early next year (some non ANDI people have seen it, and everyone has told me there was alot of material they have never seen - These were all CCR trimix ITs a few occasionally visit RBWorld)

In most programs there is a way to allow for experience, right now the L3 programs doesnt really have a way.. At best I could see reducing the number of dives.. You would need the lectures, probably at a minimum about 8 hours, plus at least 2 dives, the first dive is very skill oriented, if everything went ok then a planned deco dive.. I can't speak for every instructor, but I have worked with many experienced CCR divers (including instructors), and NOT ONE passed my skill evaluation dive on the first shot, inluding divers that hold a "mod 2" rating wishing to take full trimix or instructors crossing over, They are required to go through all the skills if they dont hold an ANDI L3 CCR cert...

I'm not picking on you, and I understand the feeling of getting ripped off but THIS case is not as black and white as it seems.. And unless you saw the program and skill required it would not be aparrant.. BTW in the US its $795

In the end MY name goes on the certification card I issue, and that means something to me.. The modest price of a diving class is much less than I would make doing consulting or even my normal day job..

decoweenie · 6th December 2006, 18:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09)

For me the big trifecta is skill-set, knowledge and mindset. I find it less and less forgivable to have deficiencies as you move from skills to knowledge to mindset. Skills can be taught and learned. Knowledge can be acquired with experience. Mindset is up to the diver, not the agency or the instructor.

Nice summary!

Quote:

Sadly, I often find myself lacking in all three.

Yeh right...

dantheman · 6th December 2006, 18:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

In the end MY name goes on the certification card I issue,
and that means something to me.. The modest price
of a diving class is much less than I would make
doing consulting or even my normal day job..

This is an under-rated motivation.

The folks who complain (not without some merit) about proliferation of certs
should understand (even if they can't/won't sympathise) with this attitude.
IMO, it is common to most tech instructors. It certainly is for me.

--dan

Dutchy · 6th December 2006, 19:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

A few things.. First at this point the ANDI L3 CCR is NOT a trimix cert, its a decompression training program.. The limits are 30 minutes of deco to 50m (air diluent).. There will be an adder in the near future for a limited trimix addon (similiar to our "technical trimix"..)

I stand corrected..Phew I'm glad I wrote the "something along those lines" part

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Right now there is no L3 ccr specific exam (I havent gotten around to writing one) right now the basic planning is tested by the L3 oc exam, the rebreather specific stuff is "quizzed" by the instructor (usually by the questions I wrote for them in the "inhouse" manual).. This procedure has worked well, but its time for an official exam.. The exam and support materials for the l3 program I should have finished by early next year..

I'd opt for doing the test (required 80% score with none of the errors being potentially fatal) without the lectures. If I'd fail I'd have to do the full thing at the full price... All I ask is that agencies allow for skipping parts of courses or even entire courses when possible. And I do agree that's your name on the c-card as well so you need to be convinced that's justified but at least let's hope your agency gives you the power to judge fo yourself.

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

In most programs there is a way to allow for experience, right now the L3 programs doesnt really have a way.. At best I could see reducing the number of dives.. You would need the lectures, probably at a minimum about 8 hours, plus at least 2 dives, the first dive is very skill oriented, if everything went ok then a planned deco dive.. I can't speak for every instructor, but I have worked with many experienced CCR divers (including instructors), and NOT ONE passed my skill evaluation dive on the first shot, inluding divers that hold a "mod 2" rating wishing to take full trimix or instructors crossing over, They are required to go through all the skills if they dont hold an ANDI L3 CCR cert...

Fair enough. I wasn't asking for a free c-card. If a diver isn't proficient he doesn't get certified. That goes without saying for ppl not proficient after going through the full course as so the same goes for the ones just wanting to be validated.

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I'm not picking on you

It doesn't feel like that. You're bringing arguments to the table. And I appreciate the constructive nature of this thread so far...

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

BTW in the US its $795

Unfortunately the airfare would annihilate the price difference

Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09)

"...or sufficient experience to satisfy the instructor that the student has the ability and knowledge to continue into this level of training."

Yup I knew that and hence I came up with the example. I appreciated that in the courses as and in fact that made me return to IANTD although [s...upmode] I had absolutely nothing but appreciation to for the ANDI L2 course... [/s...upmode]

**trob09** · 6th December 2006, 19:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Nice summary!

Thanks. With the right mindset, any diver's skill can improve or knowlege can grow. It's the self-appointed experts that I worry about. Them and the cowboys. I don't care how picture-perfect one's technique is or how encyclopedic the knowlege. If someone is a pompous ass or reckless, I won't dive with them.

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Yeh right...

As Harry Callahan said, "a man's got to know his limitations". I believe I have several.

rdmmdr · 6th December 2006, 20:38

remember to good old days when there were 4 cards only, ow aow dm and inst. then padi came up with all the specialty courses just to make money to their shops. but at least they did not require you to take the photo course before going in the water with a camera. while advanced training should be suggested and available, what open water skills are you going to learn diving single bottle nitrox. hand me the book and give me a test to prove that i can do the math for mod.

god forbid that we go back to the old days, when ow divers routinely dove to 150 plus on straight air with only tables, because they were properly trained to do it.

here is my suggestion
required courses
ow training 150ft and not a club med bs class
advanced open water/ full nitrox.
rebreather course by typeclass/ ie scr,mccr,eccr
checkout for type specific, 2hr in the pool to prove you know where the bottons are.
deco unlimited
trimix

optional courses.
intro wreaks
intro cave
or any other specialty you feel like.

and class room lecture should be banned. write a decent book and give a test.

rick

***jradomski*** · 6th December 2006, 20:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

I'd opt for doing the test (required 80% score with none of the errors being potentially fatal) without the lectures. If I'd fail I'd have to do the full thing at the full price...

I understand fully.. I have a mini "pre-test" I usually give experienced students that usually, gets them to take the lectures.. Its a multipart question, that would be about a 25 pt question on an exam... Most divers get it flat wrong... (although someone who wrote their own deco software would probably get most of it right)... Its alot easier on the student than having them take a long exam, this way I get a good idea right away..

Joe · 6th December 2006, 21:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

........ I can't speak for every instructor, but I have worked with many experienced CCR divers (including instructors), and NOT ONE passed my skill evaluation dive on the first shot, inluding divers that hold a "mod 2" rating wishing to take full trimix or instructors crossing over, They are required to go through all the skills if they dont hold an ANDI L3 CCR cert........

Just curious, what specific skills do you evaluate? My guess is that you probably have a few that you feel are "super" critical and I'd be interested in knowing what they are as part of my continuously trying to learn and improve my CCR skill set.

Thanks.

Joe

6th December 2006, 17:04	#31 (permalink)
Kostas Christou New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Thessaloniki, Greece Posts: 1	Re: Training and Standards Hello from Greece! I really didn't intend to participate in any kind of forum on the net (the message on the top of my screen has been there for many months), but I believe this short note should be sent to a person with quite the same beliefs and actions like mine. It's actually a good thing to read your posts, they should be very seriously studied by every diver - every "free in depth" or "diver of my own" I could say! Karl I share the same attitude towards the training organisations, having also attended for many years the war in Europe between CMAS-local Federations and most overseas orgs like PADI, NAUI etc. After having a good inside idea about how the industry and training orgs work, I also decided to follow all these years the route of self suficiancy and in practice solo diving most of the time, even when with other mates and even more for deep diving and photographing. I have been diving OC for the last three decades, and nitrox-trimix since 1996. I have developed my two homebuilt RBs KISS style and successfully diving them for the last four years, after spending some time before with a Biopak60 O2 modified and a FenzyPO68. I use my backworn KISS Rebreather with a VR3 Jetsam double O2 display and Rebreather Guardian HUD with two sellectable setpoints (1.2 and 1.0) and 3 R22D sensors successfully up to 80m. My other unit is a LARV modified with the RBG HUD and VR3 also successfully used up to 50m, very lite and shest worn, even as a bailout unit. This is the point to pay credentials to a fantastic person, Uri Baran the supplier of the RBG HUD, who has given the perfect aid for taking the most from my RBs and actually use them for what they were made : photography. Well Karl, congratulations again for your article and keep up with the good work! If you ever plan to visit our seas, I would be glad to show you Greece above and below the sea. Best regards, Kostas
(Offline)

6th December 2006, 17:08	#32 (permalink)
trob09 . Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 701	Re: Training and Standards Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) So do I. If the diver is well prepared, the advanced courses are actually more pleasurable to conduct since it is more of a fine-tuning course. The beginner courses are always more difficult and involve more work in general since the instructor has to go thru almost everything (most of the time). Once in a while, you would get a group of well-prepared and good divers, then it is fun as you could push them a bit more than usual... Having said that, sometimes you would get somene has all the official credentials (i.e. C-cards) to take the advanced course, but not the knowledge or skills. Then you wonder how did this person passed those prerequisite courses in the first place. So having the right cards doesn't necessary mean having the right skills 100% of the time, but it does help to associate one for the other most of the time. I concur. I know more than a few people with advanced certifications that I wouldn't buddy-up with in a kiddie pool. For me the big trifecta is skill-set, knowledge and mindset. I find it less and less forgivable to have deficiencies as you move from skills to knowledge to mindset. Skills can be taught and learned. Knowledge can be acquired with experience. Mindset is up to the diver, not the agency or the instructor. Sadly, I often find myself lacking in all three.
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6th December 2006, 18:05	#33 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: Training and Standards Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) One entry level example (purely fictive).... When I'm OC qualified as Advanced Recreational Tx diver (48m/15min acc deco limits) and ANDI L2 KISS certified and want to become ANDI L3 CCR (normoxic Tx and max depth 50m and deco ceiling max=9m or something along that lines) Then I think you could safely state that I should have covered all the theory... To verify that 1 exam taking 1hours ? ? A few things.. First at this point the ANDI L3 CCR is NOT a trimix cert, its a decompression training program.. The limits are 30 minutes of deco to 50m (air diluent).. There will be an adder in the near future for a limited trimix addon (similiar to our "technical trimix"..) I wrote the current ANDI L3 ccr program, and I am confident that the previous cert you mentioned does not cover much of the materials in the ANDI L3 program.. Having a full trimix rating still wouldnt cover you either.. Right now there is no L3 ccr specific exam (I havent gotten around to writing one) right now the basic planning is tested by the L3 oc exam, the rebreather specific stuff is "quizzed" by the instructor (usually by the questions I wrote for them in the "inhouse" manual).. This procedure has worked well, but its time for an official exam.. The exam and support materials for the l3 program I should have finished by early next year.. I have an inhouse text that is used by the instructors as a reference that will become available as an official textbook also probably early next year (some non ANDI people have seen it, and everyone has told me there was alot of material they have never seen - These were all CCR trimix ITs a few occasionally visit RBWorld) In most programs there is a way to allow for experience, right now the L3 programs doesnt really have a way.. At best I could see reducing the number of dives.. You would need the lectures, probably at a minimum about 8 hours, plus at least 2 dives, the first dive is very skill oriented, if everything went ok then a planned deco dive.. I can't speak for every instructor, but I have worked with many experienced CCR divers (including instructors), and NOT ONE passed my skill evaluation dive on the first shot, inluding divers that hold a "mod 2" rating wishing to take full trimix or instructors crossing over, They are required to go through all the skills if they dont hold an ANDI L3 CCR cert... I'm not picking on you, and I understand the feeling of getting ripped off but THIS case is not as black and white as it seems.. And unless you saw the program and skill required it would not be aparrant.. BTW in the US its $795 In the end MY name goes on the certification card I issue, and that means something to me.. The modest price of a diving class is much less than I would make doing consulting or even my normal day job.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 6th December 2006 at 18:09.
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6th December 2006, 18:10	#34 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Training and Standards Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09) For me the big trifecta is skill-set, knowledge and mindset. I find it less and less forgivable to have deficiencies as you move from skills to knowledge to mindset. Skills can be taught and learned. Knowledge can be acquired with experience. Mindset is up to the diver, not the agency or the instructor. Nice summary! Quote: Sadly, I often find myself lacking in all three. Yeh right... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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6th December 2006, 18:44	#35 (permalink)
dantheman Emoticonoclast Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss rEvo Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Join Date: May 2005 Location: NorthEast USA Posts: 397	Re: Training and Standards Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) In the end MY name goes on the certification card I issue, and that means something to me.. The modest price of a diving class is much less than I would make doing consulting or even my normal day job.. This is an under-rated motivation. The folks who complain (not without some merit) about proliferation of certs should understand (even if they can't/won't sympathise) with this attitude. IMO, it is common to most tech instructors. It certainly is for me. --dan
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6th December 2006, 19:11	#36 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 844	Re: Training and Standards Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) A few things.. First at this point the ANDI L3 CCR is NOT a trimix cert, its a decompression training program.. The limits are 30 minutes of deco to 50m (air diluent).. There will be an adder in the near future for a limited trimix addon (similiar to our "technical trimix"..) I stand corrected..Phew I'm glad I wrote the "something along those lines" part Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Right now there is no L3 ccr specific exam (I havent gotten around to writing one) right now the basic planning is tested by the L3 oc exam, the rebreather specific stuff is "quizzed" by the instructor (usually by the questions I wrote for them in the "inhouse" manual).. This procedure has worked well, but its time for an official exam.. The exam and support materials for the l3 program I should have finished by early next year.. I'd opt for doing the test (required 80% score with none of the errors being potentially fatal) without the lectures. If I'd fail I'd have to do the full thing at the full price... All I ask is that agencies allow for skipping parts of courses or even entire courses when possible. And I do agree that's your name on the c-card as well so you need to be convinced that's justified but at least let's hope your agency gives you the power to judge fo yourself. Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) In most programs there is a way to allow for experience, right now the L3 programs doesnt really have a way.. At best I could see reducing the number of dives.. You would need the lectures, probably at a minimum about 8 hours, plus at least 2 dives, the first dive is very skill oriented, if everything went ok then a planned deco dive.. I can't speak for every instructor, but I have worked with many experienced CCR divers (including instructors), and NOT ONE passed my skill evaluation dive on the first shot, inluding divers that hold a "mod 2" rating wishing to take full trimix or instructors crossing over, They are required to go through all the skills if they dont hold an ANDI L3 CCR cert... Fair enough. I wasn't asking for a free c-card. If a diver isn't proficient he doesn't get certified. That goes without saying for ppl not proficient after going through the full course as so the same goes for the ones just wanting to be validated. Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) I'm not picking on you It doesn't feel like that. You're bringing arguments to the table. And I appreciate the constructive nature of this thread so far... Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) BTW in the US its $795 Unfortunately the airfare would annihilate the price difference Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09) "...or sufficient experience to satisfy the instructor that the student has the ability and knowledge to continue into this level of training." Yup I knew that and hence I came up with the example. I appreciated that in the courses as and in fact that made me return to IANTD although [s...upmode] I had absolutely nothing but appreciation to for the ANDI L2 course... [/s...upmode] __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. = Last edited by Dutchy : 6th December 2006 at 19:17.
(Online)

6th December 2006, 19:35	#37 (permalink)
trob09 . Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 701	Re: Training and Standards Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Nice summary! Thanks. With the right mindset, any diver's skill can improve or knowlege can grow. It's the self-appointed experts that I worry about. Them and the cowboys. I don't care how picture-perfect one's technique is or how encyclopedic the knowlege. If someone is a pompous ass or reckless, I won't dive with them. Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Yeh right... As Harry Callahan said, "a man's got to know his limitations". I believe I have several.
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6th December 2006, 20:38	#38 (permalink)
rdmmdr designer of death Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: kerman,california Posts: 372	Re: Training and Standards remember to good old days when there were 4 cards only, ow aow dm and inst. then padi came up with all the specialty courses just to make money to their shops. but at least they did not require you to take the photo course before going in the water with a camera. while advanced training should be suggested and available, what open water skills are you going to learn diving single bottle nitrox. hand me the book and give me a test to prove that i can do the math for mod. god forbid that we go back to the old days, when ow divers routinely dove to 150 plus on straight air with only tables, because they were properly trained to do it. here is my suggestion required courses ow training 150ft and not a club med bs class advanced open water/ full nitrox. rebreather course by typeclass/ ie scr,mccr,eccr checkout for type specific, 2hr in the pool to prove you know where the bottons are. deco unlimited trimix optional courses. intro wreaks intro cave or any other specialty you feel like. and class room lecture should be banned. write a decent book and give a test. rick
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6th December 2006, 20:48	#39 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: Training and Standards Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) I'd opt for doing the test (required 80% score with none of the errors being potentially fatal) without the lectures. If I'd fail I'd have to do the full thing at the full price... I understand fully.. I have a mini "pre-test" I usually give experienced students that usually, gets them to take the lectures.. Its a multipart question, that would be about a 25 pt question on an exam... Most divers get it flat wrong... (although someone who wrote their own deco software would probably get most of it right)... Its alot easier on the student than having them take a long exam, this way I get a good idea right away.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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6th December 2006, 21:04	#40 (permalink)
Joe RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 321	Re: Training and Standards Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) ........ I can't speak for every instructor, but I have worked with many experienced CCR divers (including instructors), and NOT ONE passed my skill evaluation dive on the first shot, inluding divers that hold a "mod 2" rating wishing to take full trimix or instructors crossing over, They are required to go through all the skills if they dont hold an ANDI L3 CCR cert........ Just curious, what specific skills do you evaluate? My guess is that you probably have a few that you feel are "super" critical and I'd be interested in knowing what they are as part of my continuously trying to learn and improve my CCR skill set. Thanks. Joe
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