Should 'Hypercapnia Experience' Be Part Of Training?

Crazyduck · 17th May 2005, 21:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

Thanks Stuart

Martin

Just for future reference-

Contacting instructors in private is for your privacy, and to see if what they are offering is going to work out for you and the instructor. This is done out of courtesy for the instructor and the student. Plus, something’s are best just not covered in public between lawyers, insurance agencies and family members. Please keep in mind that many sites like this are searchable once you find the person you are looking for then it is a matter of doing a simple search to see what you have said and posted.

When I was a NAUI Instructor Trainer (now retired) I had a Master Diver- Student approach me with something I said in a cave forum. What was acceptable in that forum was not acceptable for that student and what they were learning in their course work. Hence it changes what you are willing to say.

In the future PM the instructor or instructor trainer. Or ask people to PM you about an instructor that they might recommend someone in your area. In the public forum all is required is “pm sent” so we can see that information is flowing to that very person.

We are very lucky that Joe is nice enough to spend his time. I know of other folks that are lurking but all of them ask only for respect and decency.

If you were unaware of this un writen policy I am sorry for one that I did not see this earlier.

Regards, Andrew

***jradomski*** · 17th May 2005, 23:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

To add to the discussion. one of the things which made me think before playing was that allegedly some people don't regain consciousness from hypercapnia. So it's interesting that some agencies insist on it.

I'm glad I've tried it because I've proved my bailout drill to myself. That alone was worth the risk. If I'm better at spotting hits in the future, then that's a nice bonus, but not the main reason to my mind.

Why do so many people associate hypercapnia with unconsciousness.. The excecise is an AWARENESS not to make the person pass out (although that has been the goal in many commercial and military training just like hypoxia).. The goal is to allow a person to experience SOME of the symptoms under controlled conditions, and then end the excercise..

The thing that doesn't surprise me about the two camps (pro and con) most of those for it have tried it and feel they have benefitted, those who havent tried it are dead against it and feel there is no benefit..

Obviously I am on the side of it being useful and I feel it definately heped me out on more than one, the first time it happened to me may have turned out different, if I already didn't know the feeling (again not saying I will always have the same sensations)..

cedricverdier · 18th May 2005, 09:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Why do so many people associate hypercapnia with unconsciousness.. The excecise is an AWARENESS not to make the person pass out (although that has been the goal in many commercial and military training just like hypoxia).. The goal is to allow a person to experience SOME of the symptoms under controlled conditions, and then end the excercise..

The thing that doesn't surprise me about the two camps (pro and con) most of those for it have tried it and feel they have benefitted, those who havent tried it are dead against it and feel there is no benefit..

Obviously I am on the side of it being useful and I feel it definately heped me out on more than one, the first time it happened to me may have turned out different, if I already didn't know the feeling (again not saying I will always have the same sensations)..

I fully agree.

If someone never tried the test, give it a chance in a very safe environment. The benefits will maybe become obvious...

What could be interesting in this thread is to clearly define the safest protocol to do this test, according to the various experience:
- Where (open water, pool or on a sofa while watching a movie)?
- For how long (set time, 1st symptom, unconsciousness!!!)?
- Activity (at rest, moderate swim, "pushing a wall")?
- Safety (one or two tenders, at the surface with a fully inflated BC, FFM)?

Cheers

***EBT*** · 18th May 2005, 10:41

Hypercapnic events are not of small impact on the body. I spoke to a vet mate of mine who (active diver) went white at the prospect of this. You can alter your body chemistry, do damage and if taken too far, may not spontaneously respire afterwards.

So, given all that, if you're willing to do the test, shouldnt you have medically trained personnel available?

Also, if you're wiling to do this, why not do a tox test too....

Shon Roberts · 18th May 2005, 12:19

Hi Rob.
Thanks for the greeting. This is a good interesting site with lots of info which is good for a new rebreather diver like me.
Just in case your interested the Devil hood came from Scapa Scuba in Stromness.
www.scapascuba.co.uk
Thanks again.
Shon.

JonnyB · 18th May 2005, 13:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by wreckweasel)

Hypercapnic events are not of small impact on the body. I spoke to a vet mate of mine who (active diver) went white at the prospect of this. You can alter your body chemistry, do damage and if taken too far, may not spontaneously respire afterwards.

So, given all that, if you're willing to do the test, shouldnt you have medically trained personnel available?

Also, if you're wiling to do this, why not do a tox test too....

I would't really mind doing a tox text, when i did my commercial diving training, i asked the school to put me in a chamber to do it, but they refused... hmmmm
The tox itself is not leathal from what i understand, the problems is that you cant do it at ambient pressure so it has to be either in a chamber or underwater... and underwater it does get dangerous...

/Jonny

**mattmexico** · 9th September 2005, 19:08

Yo there

When I was trained on the Cis in 1997 we had a hypercapnia test done on us as well as as hypoxia test. The tests where done while sitting on the surface, on a bench with the unit on. We had a hyperbaric doctor on site overseeing the voluntary test. The test was very controlled and in my opinion safe to conduct.

For me personally it was a eye opener to the subtle oncoming and develpement of symptoms prior only heard about or read about that further developed my understanduing of the little nuances and changes, and how I do personally feel when going hypoxic or suffering from hypercapnia.

I was glad to sit on the surface and not being underwater. I don't know if I would have done it underwater.

I am telling my students about that but have not done a test liek that since I feel proper medical supervicion is needed. Not to harm the student under my supervision is paramount, safety first.

Matt
www.protecdiving.com

17th May 2005, 21:24	#41 (permalink)
Crazyduck Underwater Mechanic Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TEXAS, Dallas/ Ft.Worth Posts: 719	Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) Thanks Stuart Martin Just for future reference- Contacting instructors in private is for your privacy, and to see if what they are offering is going to work out for you and the instructor. This is done out of courtesy for the instructor and the student. Plus, something’s are best just not covered in public between lawyers, insurance agencies and family members. Please keep in mind that many sites like this are searchable once you find the person you are looking for then it is a matter of doing a simple search to see what you have said and posted. When I was a NAUI Instructor Trainer (now retired) I had a Master Diver- Student approach me with something I said in a cave forum. What was acceptable in that forum was not acceptable for that student and what they were learning in their course work. Hence it changes what you are willing to say. In the future PM the instructor or instructor trainer. Or ask people to PM you about an instructor that they might recommend someone in your area. In the public forum all is required is “pm sent” so we can see that information is flowing to that very person. We are very lucky that Joe is nice enough to spend his time. I know of other folks that are lurking but all of them ask only for respect and decency. If you were unaware of this un writen policy I am sorry for one that I did not see this earlier. Regards, Andrew
(Online)

17th May 2005, 23:00	#42 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) To add to the discussion. one of the things which made me think before playing was that allegedly some people don't regain consciousness from hypercapnia. So it's interesting that some agencies insist on it. I'm glad I've tried it because I've proved my bailout drill to myself. That alone was worth the risk. If I'm better at spotting hits in the future, then that's a nice bonus, but not the main reason to my mind. Why do so many people associate hypercapnia with unconsciousness.. The excecise is an AWARENESS not to make the person pass out (although that has been the goal in many commercial and military training just like hypoxia).. The goal is to allow a person to experience SOME of the symptoms under controlled conditions, and then end the excercise.. The thing that doesn't surprise me about the two camps (pro and con) most of those for it have tried it and feel they have benefitted, those who havent tried it are dead against it and feel there is no benefit.. Obviously I am on the side of it being useful and I feel it definately heped me out on more than one, the first time it happened to me may have turned out different, if I already didn't know the feeling (again not saying I will always have the same sensations).. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

18th May 2005, 09:47	#43 (permalink)
cedricverdier S21 M.I.B. Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Worldwide! Posts: 498	Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Why do so many people associate hypercapnia with unconsciousness.. The excecise is an AWARENESS not to make the person pass out (although that has been the goal in many commercial and military training just like hypoxia).. The goal is to allow a person to experience SOME of the symptoms under controlled conditions, and then end the excercise.. The thing that doesn't surprise me about the two camps (pro and con) most of those for it have tried it and feel they have benefitted, those who havent tried it are dead against it and feel there is no benefit.. Obviously I am on the side of it being useful and I feel it definately heped me out on more than one, the first time it happened to me may have turned out different, if I already didn't know the feeling (again not saying I will always have the same sensations).. I fully agree. If someone never tried the test, give it a chance in a very safe environment. The benefits will maybe become obvious... What could be interesting in this thread is to clearly define the safest protocol to do this test, according to the various experience: - Where (open water, pool or on a sofa while watching a movie)? - For how long (set time, 1st symptom, unconsciousness!!!)? - Activity (at rest, moderate swim, "pushing a wall")? - Safety (one or two tenders, at the surface with a fully inflated BC, FFM)? Cheers __________________ Cedric Verdier PADI Course Director, ANDI-IANTD-PSAI-TDI-DSAT-DAN-NAUI-CMAS Instructor Trainer Trimix (CCR and OC) and Cave Diving Instructor Trainer www.CedricVerdier.com DIRrebreather member
(Offline)

18th May 2005, 10:41	#44 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,110	Hypercapnic events are not of small impact on the body. I spoke to a vet mate of mine who (active diver) went white at the prospect of this. You can alter your body chemistry, do damage and if taken too far, may not spontaneously respire afterwards. So, given all that, if you're willing to do the test, shouldnt you have medically trained personnel available? Also, if you're wiling to do this, why not do a tox test too.... __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service
(Offline)

18th May 2005, 12:19	#45 (permalink)
Shon Roberts Shon Roberts Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: uk Posts: 16	Thanks for the greeting Hi Rob. Thanks for the greeting. This is a good interesting site with lots of info which is good for a new rebreather diver like me. Just in case your interested the Devil hood came from Scapa Scuba in Stromness. www.scapascuba.co.uk Thanks again. Shon. __________________ DeepDiver
(Offline)

18th May 2005, 13:17	#46 (permalink)
JonnyB Johnny The Hatch Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Titan Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden (Stockholm)/Cyprus(Ayia Napa) Posts: 991	Quote: (Originally Posted by wreckweasel) Hypercapnic events are not of small impact on the body. I spoke to a vet mate of mine who (active diver) went white at the prospect of this. You can alter your body chemistry, do damage and if taken too far, may not spontaneously respire afterwards. So, given all that, if you're willing to do the test, shouldnt you have medically trained personnel available? Also, if you're wiling to do this, why not do a tox test too.... I would't really mind doing a tox text, when i did my commercial diving training, i asked the school to put me in a chamber to do it, but they refused... hmmmm The tox itself is not leathal from what i understand, the problems is that you cant do it at ambient pressure so it has to be either in a chamber or underwater... and underwater it does get dangerous... /Jonny
(Online)

9th September 2005, 19:08	#47 (permalink)
mattmexico PROTEC MEXICO Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Optima RB80 / Clone Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Prism Topaz Sport Kiss RB80 / Clone Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Mexico, Q.Roo, Playa del Carmen Posts: 773	Yo there When I was trained on the Cis in 1997 we had a hypercapnia test done on us as well as as hypoxia test. The tests where done while sitting on the surface, on a bench with the unit on. We had a hyperbaric doctor on site overseeing the voluntary test. The test was very controlled and in my opinion safe to conduct. For me personally it was a eye opener to the subtle oncoming and develpement of symptoms prior only heard about or read about that further developed my understanduing of the little nuances and changes, and how I do personally feel when going hypoxic or suffering from hypercapnia. I was glad to sit on the surface and not being underwater. I don't know if I would have done it underwater. I am telling my students about that but have not done a test liek that since I feel proper medical supervicion is needed. Not to harm the student under my supervision is paramount, safety first. Matt www.protecdiving.com
(Offline)

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