Should 'Hypercapnia Experience' Be Part Of Training?

***jradomski*** · 16th May 2005, 04:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

Joe,

How many CCR divers have you certified in the last 17 yrs?

Martin

If I was certifying CCR divers for 17 years that really would be something... and would be eligible for some type of special award since I started CCR diving/teaching 5 years ago... Piles of numbers mean absolutely nothing to me, I would rather certify ONE diver on a very intesnive program than signing off a dozen just because they went through the motions.. Too me quality counts... But thats MY opinion, and everyone is entitled to THEIR opinion.. I also feel my talents are better off spent traveling and teaching those who want to teach the same as well instead of looking for every diver level student locally...

The agency has certified alot and all types of units, but I have no idea how many.

I trust the judgement of those that initaially put together the various Rebreather programs, they have alot of experience among them, have a very divers background and have worked on many experimental units.. I feel I was well prepared for a wide range of diving conditions and possible problems during my RB training.. I would not trade my HC experience at all.. I probablly would have NEVER associated the dark Narc I experience with HC until it might possibley been too late. With the training I received I feel at home doing 100m+ dives and didn't hesitate joing ANDI's expedition to Indonesia last year to document the deep walls of BNMP when I knew we were going to be diving in the 150m range (and not bounce dives either)... How many people are confortable with their training to do these types of dives.. I was also responsible for the training of one the other bottom divers on the expedition, who traveled to locations when I ran clasess for other shops..

If my 17 year statement sounds like a boast, as an ANDI instructor I am proud to be part of it..That includes ALL training programs. The selective nature and high standards fro instructors has accomplished something that no other agency has come close to.. I initially started with ANDI just to get some additional training since I knew about Ed's experience and knowledge, the more I found out about the agency the more I found it fit my philosopy and became more and more involved...

I knew when I earned my IT rating it was an accomplishment, to date its only been awarded to 119 other people which means the instructor training programs ahev very tight control and everyone learns tha same stuff, quite different from other angencies that boast on having lots fo ITs...

If you don't agree with me thats you right since you are entitled to your opinion..

Drmike · 16th May 2005, 06:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I

I am for anything that can raise a persons respect for CO2 and their awareness level.. The symptoms can vary but there is still nothing like KNOWING what a potential particular symptom may feel like..

.

fully agree.

The few near misses Ive had has given me an appreciation of some early symptoms that I am prone to. Now during my dives, especially when working hard, I'm constantly on the look out for any early sign of those symptoms. I have had a few instances where I have felt a growing nervousness, or more usually darkening vision and Ive recognized it and flushed/stopped to prevent escalation.

A fully blown breakthrough may come on fast, however, being able to recognise some of ones personal early symptoms I am sure gives one a higher chance of reacting than if one has no idea of what a growing CO2 hit may feel like.

cedricverdier · 16th May 2005, 12:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

being able to recognise some of ones personal early symptoms I am sure gives one a higher chance of reacting than if one has no idea of what a growing CO2 hit may feel like.

I fully agree. The CO2 hits I got with fresh Sofnolime were mainly because of heavy exertion underwater. The early symptoms made me almost paranoid about CO2 hit.

Having experienced some of the symptoms of a CO2 hit during a hypercapnia test makes you wiser. I don't think that almost experiencing a car crash gives you a false sense of safety. It scares you to death and makes you a much more prudent driver.
The hypercapnia test can help you and, if done in a safely manner, doesn't make any harm. So why not doing it?

Obviously it's not the case of a hypoxia test. We maybe have millions of brain cells but a lot of them die every day. No need to kill more of them...

Cheers

Skipbreather · 16th May 2005, 16:31

I come solidly down on the side of more knowledge is a good thing. The HC experience is perhaps more important for some personality types and physiologies than others, but it is far better to have at least some frame of reference for ‘man, why do feel so funky?” than to assume training to bail will prevail.

The experience is in some ways most important for homebuilders who may be using ahhh…., less than well engineered scrubber set ups. The key is to do it under tightly controlled circumstances. My vote for them would be a couch dive w/ empty scrubber closely supervised by a dive buddy to whom they owe money- preferably LOTS of money! You could even get a second friend to video tape it for “instructional purposes” at a party- or maybe just for bribery.

All joking aside, the argument “any given individuals’ HC symptoms will vary, so the demo is useless” doesn’t hold up w/ me. Hypoxia symptoms vary also. The military believes it’s so important for aviators to know their personal hypoxia symptoms as they change w/ time that the altitude chamber ride is a recurrent requirement every few years.

Being 100 ft back inside a wreck, solo, is not the place I would have chosen for my first experience w/ a badly overbreathed scrubber. Only decades of training for handling emergency procedures allowed me to fight off the absolute certainty I was going to die then and there, and calmly exit the wreck. I had redundant OC bailout 5 inches from my mouth and my hand was 2 inches from the toggle for a dil flush. At the time neither seemed an option. My vote is that divers need to experience that sort of mental paralysis for the first time in a safe, highly supervised environment.

dive2dive2000 · 16th May 2005, 17:29

Joe,

I miss read your 17 yr statement. I do not agree or disagree with your view. I am a newbee and listen to everyone with open mind. I will make my own opinion when I have experence to make one.

I am curious though. How many Instructors have you certified to teach(and what units) and how many students have you certified to dive(and which units). Please do not take offense to my questions but the only way I can compare instructors to there experience is by judging how many students they worked with. After all when you do any kind of advance training there is a prerequisite to the # of dives you have and depth. I think the same is vaild for a student looking for an Instructor If your advice can save some ones life or kill them than your resume should be public knowledge.

Martin

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

If I was certifying CCR divers for 17 years that really would be something... and would be eligible for some type of special award since I started CCR diving/teaching 5 years ago... Piles of numbers mean absolutely nothing to me, I would rather certify ONE diver on a very intesnive program than signing off a dozen just because they went through the motions.. Too me quality counts... But thats MY opinion, and everyone is entitled to THEIR opinion.. I also feel my talents are better off spent traveling and teaching those who want to teach the same as well instead of looking for every diver level student locally...

The agency has certified alot and all types of units, but I have no idea how many.

I trust the judgement of those that initaially put together the various Rebreather programs, they have alot of experience among them, have a very divers background and have worked on many experimental units.. I feel I was well prepared for a wide range of diving conditions and possible problems during my RB training.. I would not trade my HC experience at all.. I probablly would have NEVER associated the dark Narc I experience with HC until it might possibley been too late. With the training I received I feel at home doing 100m+ dives and didn't hesitate joing ANDI's expedition to Indonesia last year to document the deep walls of BNMP when I knew we were going to be diving in the 150m range (and not bounce dives either)... How many people are confortable with their training to do these types of dives.. I was also responsible for the training of one the other bottom divers on the expedition, who traveled to locations when I ran clasess for other shops..

If my 17 year statement sounds like a boast, as an ANDI instructor I am proud to be part of it..That includes ALL training programs. The selective nature and high standards fro instructors has accomplished something that no other agency has come close to.. I initially started with ANDI just to get some additional training since I knew about Ed's experience and knowledge, the more I found out about the agency the more I found it fit my philosopy and became more and more involved...

I knew when I earned my IT rating it was an accomplishment, to date its only been awarded to 119 other people which means the instructor training programs ahev very tight control and everyone learns tha same stuff, quite different from other angencies that boast on having lots fo ITs...

If you don't agree with me thats you right since you are entitled to your opinion..

Drmike · 16th May 2005, 18:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

If your advice can save some ones life or kill them than your resume should be public knowledge.

Bloody hell if your going to start asking people to post resumes whenever they give their opinions on the forums you will kill off all those 'internet divers'

which Joe certainly isnt.

***caveseeker7*** · 16th May 2005, 18:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

If your advice can save some ones life or kill them than your resume should be public knowledge.

Aside from much of Joe's resume being public knowledge, if you can't figure out if his advice falls into the 'safe' or 'kill' category you should seek out a good rebreather instructor. And depending on the choice of unit Joe should be high up on the short list.

MHD · 16th May 2005, 20:52

Waste of time. I think you'll find both the RAN and NZ Navy have given up on the practice as the symptoms varies so much that they found people ignored other symptoms when the real thing happened and hence where worse off for having done the training, they felt "safe" in their knowledge.

MHD

***jradomski*** · 16th May 2005, 21:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD)

Waste of time. I think you'll find both the RAN and NZ Navy have given up on the practice as the symptoms varies so much that they found people ignored other symptoms when the real thing happened and hence where worse off for having done the training, they felt "safe" in their knowledge.

MHD

If a person is told thats all the potential smptoms they will experience then the trainer is to blame.. The goal is to expose the diver to SOME of the POTENTIAL symptoms so they MAY be able to spot them.. There is no guarantee.. Some exposure is better than no exposure.. Too many people DO NOT respect potential CO2 problems, anyone who has felt the debilatating effects of co2 know not to push things..

I can just go by what I personally have felt and feedback I have received from students, most were very happy to have done the excercise and they DO realize its still no guarantee they will spot the symptoms in real life.. I guess I am lucky in that one of the symptoms I get is VERY recognizable, and even if it is not CO2 I treat it as such if I get it (what I call a dark narcosis - I really get paranoid _ and feel this sensation of impending doom)

dive2dive2000 · 16th May 2005, 22:59

Stefan,

Being a

some things I can figure out and some I will have to trust

as to what my instructor tells me. My 2 choices are Andrew driver and Leon Scamarhorn. I have possed the following question(How many Instructors have you certified to teach(and what units) and how many students have you certified to dive(and which units)) to every instructor that I have spoken to, and the list is about 6; it was answered immediately with no insult being taken. For some reason my post is not being interperted that way, so please do not take offense, but I feel that that is a fare question to ask. So I will ask Joe R, How many...?

Martin

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Aside from much of Joe's resume being public knowledge, if you can't figure out if his advice falls into the 'safe' or 'kill' category you should seek out a good rebreather instructor. And depending on the choice of unit Joe should be high up on the short list.

16th May 2005, 04:40	#21 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) Joe, How many CCR divers have you certified in the last 17 yrs? Martin If I was certifying CCR divers for 17 years that really would be something... and would be eligible for some type of special award since I started CCR diving/teaching 5 years ago... Piles of numbers mean absolutely nothing to me, I would rather certify ONE diver on a very intesnive program than signing off a dozen just because they went through the motions.. Too me quality counts... But thats MY opinion, and everyone is entitled to THEIR opinion.. I also feel my talents are better off spent traveling and teaching those who want to teach the same as well instead of looking for every diver level student locally... The agency has certified alot and all types of units, but I have no idea how many. I trust the judgement of those that initaially put together the various Rebreather programs, they have alot of experience among them, have a very divers background and have worked on many experimental units.. I feel I was well prepared for a wide range of diving conditions and possible problems during my RB training.. I would not trade my HC experience at all.. I probablly would have NEVER associated the dark Narc I experience with HC until it might possibley been too late. With the training I received I feel at home doing 100m+ dives and didn't hesitate joing ANDI's expedition to Indonesia last year to document the deep walls of BNMP when I knew we were going to be diving in the 150m range (and not bounce dives either)... How many people are confortable with their training to do these types of dives.. I was also responsible for the training of one the other bottom divers on the expedition, who traveled to locations when I ran clasess for other shops.. If my 17 year statement sounds like a boast, as an ANDI instructor I am proud to be part of it..That includes ALL training programs. The selective nature and high standards fro instructors has accomplished something that no other agency has come close to.. I initially started with ANDI just to get some additional training since I knew about Ed's experience and knowledge, the more I found out about the agency the more I found it fit my philosopy and became more and more involved... I knew when I earned my IT rating it was an accomplishment, to date its only been awarded to 119 other people which means the instructor training programs ahev very tight control and everyone learns tha same stuff, quite different from other angencies that boast on having lots fo ITs... If you don't agree with me thats you right since you are entitled to your opinion.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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16th May 2005, 06:11	#22 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) I I am for anything that can raise a persons respect for CO2 and their awareness level.. The symptoms can vary but there is still nothing like KNOWING what a potential particular symptom may feel like.. . fully agree. The few near misses Ive had has given me an appreciation of some early symptoms that I am prone to. Now during my dives, especially when working hard, I'm constantly on the look out for any early sign of those symptoms. I have had a few instances where I have felt a growing nervousness, or more usually darkening vision and Ive recognized it and flushed/stopped to prevent escalation. A fully blown breakthrough may come on fast, however, being able to recognise some of ones personal early symptoms I am sure gives one a higher chance of reacting than if one has no idea of what a growing CO2 hit may feel like.
(Offline)

16th May 2005, 12:08	#23 (permalink)
cedricverdier S21 M.I.B. Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Worldwide! Posts: 498	Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) being able to recognise some of ones personal early symptoms I am sure gives one a higher chance of reacting than if one has no idea of what a growing CO2 hit may feel like. I fully agree. The CO2 hits I got with fresh Sofnolime were mainly because of heavy exertion underwater. The early symptoms made me almost paranoid about CO2 hit. Having experienced some of the symptoms of a CO2 hit during a hypercapnia test makes you wiser. I don't think that almost experiencing a car crash gives you a false sense of safety. It scares you to death and makes you a much more prudent driver. The hypercapnia test can help you and, if done in a safely manner, doesn't make any harm. So why not doing it? Obviously it's not the case of a hypoxia test. We maybe have millions of brain cells but a lot of them die every day. No need to kill more of them... Cheers __________________ Cedric Verdier PADI Course Director, ANDI-IANTD-PSAI-TDI-DSAT-DAN-NAUI-CMAS Instructor Trainer Trimix (CCR and OC) and Cave Diving Instructor Trainer www.CedricVerdier.com DIRrebreather member
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16th May 2005, 16:31	#24 (permalink)
Skipbreather Reads the fine print Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA Posts: 584	I come solidly down on the side of more knowledge is a good thing. The HC experience is perhaps more important for some personality types and physiologies than others, but it is far better to have at least some frame of reference for ‘man, why do feel so funky?” than to assume training to bail will prevail. The experience is in some ways most important for homebuilders who may be using ahhh…., less than well engineered scrubber set ups. The key is to do it under tightly controlled circumstances. My vote for them would be a couch dive w/ empty scrubber closely supervised by a dive buddy to whom they owe money- preferably LOTS of money! You could even get a second friend to video tape it for “instructional purposes” at a party- or maybe just for bribery. All joking aside, the argument “any given individuals’ HC symptoms will vary, so the demo is useless” doesn’t hold up w/ me. Hypoxia symptoms vary also. The military believes it’s so important for aviators to know their personal hypoxia symptoms as they change w/ time that the altitude chamber ride is a recurrent requirement every few years. Being 100 ft back inside a wreck, solo, is not the place I would have chosen for my first experience w/ a badly overbreathed scrubber. Only decades of training for handling emergency procedures allowed me to fight off the absolute certainty I was going to die then and there, and calmly exit the wreck. I had redundant OC bailout 5 inches from my mouth and my hand was 2 inches from the toggle for a dil flush. At the time neither seemed an option. My vote is that divers need to experience that sort of mental paralysis for the first time in a safe, highly supervised environment.
(Offline)

16th May 2005, 17:29	#25 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 796	Joe, I miss read your 17 yr statement. I do not agree or disagree with your view. I am a newbee and listen to everyone with open mind. I will make my own opinion when I have experence to make one. I am curious though. How many Instructors have you certified to teach(and what units) and how many students have you certified to dive(and which units). Please do not take offense to my questions but the only way I can compare instructors to there experience is by judging how many students they worked with. After all when you do any kind of advance training there is a prerequisite to the # of dives you have and depth. I think the same is vaild for a student looking for an Instructor If your advice can save some ones life or kill them than your resume should be public knowledge. Martin Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) If I was certifying CCR divers for 17 years that really would be something... and would be eligible for some type of special award since I started CCR diving/teaching 5 years ago... Piles of numbers mean absolutely nothing to me, I would rather certify ONE diver on a very intesnive program than signing off a dozen just because they went through the motions.. Too me quality counts... But thats MY opinion, and everyone is entitled to THEIR opinion.. I also feel my talents are better off spent traveling and teaching those who want to teach the same as well instead of looking for every diver level student locally... The agency has certified alot and all types of units, but I have no idea how many. I trust the judgement of those that initaially put together the various Rebreather programs, they have alot of experience among them, have a very divers background and have worked on many experimental units.. I feel I was well prepared for a wide range of diving conditions and possible problems during my RB training.. I would not trade my HC experience at all.. I probablly would have NEVER associated the dark Narc I experience with HC until it might possibley been too late. With the training I received I feel at home doing 100m+ dives and didn't hesitate joing ANDI's expedition to Indonesia last year to document the deep walls of BNMP when I knew we were going to be diving in the 150m range (and not bounce dives either)... How many people are confortable with their training to do these types of dives.. I was also responsible for the training of one the other bottom divers on the expedition, who traveled to locations when I ran clasess for other shops.. If my 17 year statement sounds like a boast, as an ANDI instructor I am proud to be part of it..That includes ALL training programs. The selective nature and high standards fro instructors has accomplished something that no other agency has come close to.. I initially started with ANDI just to get some additional training since I knew about Ed's experience and knowledge, the more I found out about the agency the more I found it fit my philosopy and became more and more involved... I knew when I earned my IT rating it was an accomplishment, to date its only been awarded to 119 other people which means the instructor training programs ahev very tight control and everyone learns tha same stuff, quite different from other angencies that boast on having lots fo ITs... If you don't agree with me thats you right since you are entitled to your opinion..
(Offline)

16th May 2005, 18:32	#26 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) If your advice can save some ones life or kill them than your resume should be public knowledge. Bloody hell if your going to start asking people to post resumes whenever they give their opinions on the forums you will kill off all those 'internet divers' which Joe certainly isnt.
(Offline)

16th May 2005, 18:42	#27 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,556	Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) If your advice can save some ones life or kill them than your resume should be public knowledge. Aside from much of Joe's resume being public knowledge, if you can't figure out if his advice falls into the 'safe' or 'kill' category you should seek out a good rebreather instructor. And depending on the choice of unit Joe should be high up on the short list. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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16th May 2005, 20:52	#28 (permalink)
MHD Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia Posts: 239	Waste of time. I think you'll find both the RAN and NZ Navy have given up on the practice as the symptoms varies so much that they found people ignored other symptoms when the real thing happened and hence where worse off for having done the training, they felt "safe" in their knowledge. MHD
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16th May 2005, 21:44	#29 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD) Waste of time. I think you'll find both the RAN and NZ Navy have given up on the practice as the symptoms varies so much that they found people ignored other symptoms when the real thing happened and hence where worse off for having done the training, they felt "safe" in their knowledge. MHD If a person is told thats all the potential smptoms they will experience then the trainer is to blame.. The goal is to expose the diver to SOME of the POTENTIAL symptoms so they MAY be able to spot them.. There is no guarantee.. Some exposure is better than no exposure.. Too many people DO NOT respect potential CO2 problems, anyone who has felt the debilatating effects of co2 know not to push things.. I can just go by what I personally have felt and feedback I have received from students, most were very happy to have done the excercise and they DO realize its still no guarantee they will spot the symptoms in real life.. I guess I am lucky in that one of the symptoms I get is VERY recognizable, and even if it is not CO2 I treat it as such if I get it (what I call a dark narcosis - I really get paranoid _ and feel this sensation of impending doom) __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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16th May 2005, 22:59	#30 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 796	Stefan, Being a some things I can figure out and some I will have to trust as to what my instructor tells me. My 2 choices are Andrew driver and Leon Scamarhorn. I have possed the following question(How many Instructors have you certified to teach(and what units) and how many students have you certified to dive(and which units)) to every instructor that I have spoken to, and the list is about 6; it was answered immediately with no insult being taken. For some reason my post is not being interperted that way, so please do not take offense, but I feel that that is a fare question to ask. So I will ask Joe R, How many...? Martin Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Aside from much of Joe's resume being public knowledge, if you can't figure out if his advice falls into the 'safe' or 'kill' category you should seek out a good rebreather instructor. And depending on the choice of unit Joe should be high up on the short list.
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