Self-teaching Vs Agency Training

AM

Right - as most people are aware, I am a strong proponent of self-teaching in my own personal diving.

I would like to know how many people did an agency rebreather training course and walked away from the course feeling that they were competent and confident enough to dive closed circuit?

Is there an argument for self-teaching being a mechanism to promote divers setting their own realistic limits, which can be slowly pushed as experience is gained? Versus the mentality promoted by courses and certifications, which can be gained with relatively little experience?

Regards

AnneMarie

/ASSCOVER - I do not advocate that anyone teaches themselves to dive any type of rebreather.

DISCLAIMER - Always seek recognised training before diving on any rebreather.

ROB DAVIE

AnneMarie,

As you may remember, I was around on the Drogon Net in your earlier days, and there was an awful lot of: "You can't do that! It's not allowed! It's against the rules! It's against the law!" and the always shouted: "You do that and you are going to DIE!!"

Obviously you haven't, thankfully, because we likes you, we does! Arrgh, matey!! Since those days you have obviously gone a long way in your diving experience, and have a lot to teach our "young folk", so to speak. (I mean that only in terms of experience, because you are just a sweet young thing yourself!)

I am a product of the professional flying world, and we are required to do things in a structured training environment, so this is what I believe is the best way to learn something new that requires a fair amount of skill and knowledge, and has the potential to kill you if you make too many mistakes!

I also believe that the knowledge imparted is only a framework to begin buildilng upon. The smart man or woman uses every opportunity to add to his or her knowledge, as you have done so well.

So, I suppose that I would have to suggest that for most people, despite your obvious success, the safest and best course would be to start with an organized training program, and then to realize that it is just the beginning, not the end of learning.

Cheers, dear lady! Some day I hope we'll get to meet, and I would be honoured to buy you quite few adult beverages of your choice, if you will grace me with some of your "war" stories!

Rob Davie

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"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving WHEN PIGS FLY!!"--GI3

wedivebc

Some of us would like to be trained on our units but can't since the agencies don't support anything but bone stock out of the box breathers. If you have modified your box in any way you may have trouble with certs agency training. I realize my dolphin is a long way from factory stock so I had my friendly neighbourhood KISS instructor show me the ropes and although I don't get a card for a CCR/Dolphin I got some valuable training that had I survived I may or may not have picked up on my own.
For example if I read the lesson material for the KISS it tells me to OC bailout in case of trouble but my patient instructor showed me lots of bailout options which I have actually employed. I was also taught how to deal with malfunctions that don't require bailout. I might have figured it out or I might have died trying, who knows.

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Cheers,

Dave....

Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die

ROB DAVIE

Dave,

As they say: "Ya gotta point there, Judge!" Think about how hard it is for the DIY folks!

Rob

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"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving WHEN PIGS FLY!!"--GI3

Nad

I find it a good way.
However I start with my homebuild with hometraining... but if I had done a formal training I would have build the unit better.

It was good but I had to change some tricks with the time.

That's why I agree with you Rob, training it's a good start.

Nad

__________________
The Impossible is often the Untried

Pierre Farrugia

I think that for breather diving training of somesort is a must! I am certified to CCR mod 1 this year and as many know still ask a lot of questions. I also think why make mistakes that can cost your life, which already have been done by others, when training was not availbe or just didn't exist!

Pierre

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Pierre Farrugia

My wife told me " If you don't quit diving I'm going to leave you"
My reply " God, I'll miss you"

www.atlam.org www.divemed.com

decoweenie

I was a strong support for self-teaching until I met some "certified CCR divers", then I am now a strong support for even more rigid teaching.

Self-teaching is sufficient for some individuals, but not for a lot of people.

Ken

To a large extent AnneMarie's question seems to address three issues: prevalent rebreather standards, adherence to standards and the capability of the student to meet said standards.

I deal with educational standards all the time. It can get quite pedantic. In the United States there is a push for all students to meet certain educational standards. It’s called “No Child Left Behind” act. It’s intent is exactly that, however there is always someone left behind and the same is true regarding rebreather education.

Standards: rebreather training agencies should agree upon certain minimum standards that all rebreather divers should be able to accomplish at the end of their successful training - regardless. This means that all starting and certified CCR divers regardless of what agency trained them should be able to perform certain tasks and maintain certain behaviors. One example: explain in writing (paper test & verbally) the operating mechanics of their rebreather to the instructor with a minimum passing score based on a grading rubric (criteria agreed upon by all training agencies). If said student met this criteria a gaining instructor would know that that their new CCR diver (with their shiny certification card) can perform to the minimum standard. This is comforting and monetarily efficient, as the instructor does not have to re-teach in order for the new student to progress further.

Additionally, certifications should carry an expiration date. I appreciate the fact that some agencies have limitations built in. It reinforces the concept that education is an on going, time dependent activity.

Adherence to Standards: Here’s a tricky spot – If we require starting CCR/SCR divers to have minimum standards it also makes sense that the instructors meet and maintain certain criteria as well… plus follow rebreather standards explicitly. If you’re an instructor you pretty much know that there is a lot of variability here. I think we’ve all witnessed OC divers jumping into the water who could be quickly categorized as risky? Unfortunately, this trend has carried over to rebreather divers as well. I have seen it in action and it’s truly appalling.

Student Capability: Students (after being screened for suitability) must be able to meet the minimum intellectual, process and attitude requirements needed for their course.

Now to answer the question - self-training occurs all the time. Every experience adds to core knowledge. There are students quite capable of learning on their own, but the majority needs guidance, or at the least some form of guided discovery. I feel experience gained under the tutelage of a competent instructor is the best method of gaining knowledge, especially when the ed. process carries a large penalty for “not getting it right”. Flying, as mentioned by Rob is one of those areas. CCR/SCR is another. For homebuilders I would recommend getting grounding from a well educated professional. I personally don’t advocate self-learning when the penalties are so huge. Individuals who manage to survive experimentation are just that, lucky.

My two and a half cents.


p.s. the flame and chest thumping wars on Drogon.net were quite entertaining

Nad

I would say that Self-teaching is SOMETIME sufficient and sometime not enough.
Anyway no more than sufficient.

Nad

__________________
The Impossible is often the Untried

Nad

I agree, experience made by other people is priceless; however just if you know all the process, not just the results so again a good training is a good start.

Nad

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The Impossible is often the Untried