Why do the number of levels vary?

jptaylor9 · 28th April 2005, 09:42

Interested in why different agencies have fewer or more levels?

***EBT*** · 28th April 2005, 11:20

because they're competing? if you all have the same product, where do you differentiate?

Its also the result of differences of opinion/ethos...

***caveseeker7*** · 28th April 2005, 16:39

Because most everything else differs, too!?

Different agencies certify on different rebreathers, for example.
IANTD will certify you on most anything that has a loop.
And is sold in the US.

NAUI requires testing data to be submitted for review.
TDI requires liability insurance.
ANDI requires a certain production capability and continuity.

ANDI CSU (nitrox) allows two mixes to 50% were most classes teach 1 mix to 40% another.

Some certify for caves, others don't. And on and on.

No wonder that they do differ, especially the "tech agencies".
IAND (later IANTD) was founded in '86 to teach nitrox.
One of the people involved with founder Dick Rutkowski was Ed Betts, who a few years later fonded AND (ANDI). One must asume he wanted to do things differently. '93, '94, somewhere in that neighborhood, Bret Gilliam left IANTD and started TDI, so same thing again. Wouldn't make sense if they all had exactly the same courses.

Mdemon · 28th April 2005, 16:45

...all of the above +

££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ £££££££££££££££££££££

Me, a cynic?

***schford*** · 28th April 2005, 16:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

TDI requires liability insurance.

I thought that AP had no product liability insurance as it was far too costly - dont know about the others...

***caveseeker7*** · 28th April 2005, 18:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

I thought that AP had no product liability insurance as it was far too costly - dont know about the others...

They don't, which is why TDI didn't certify on YBODs in the US until recently.
Forgot the details, but APD somehow self-insures according to a TDI instructor.
Something like that.

**wedivebc** · 29th April 2005, 00:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

They don't, which is why TDI didn't certify on YBODs in the US until recently.
Forgot the details, but APD somehow self-insures according to a TDI instructor.
Something like that.

Self insurance? Isn't that like file chap 11 if anone tries to sue for big$$$$

***jradomski*** · 29th April 2005, 01:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Because most everything else differs, too!?

Different agencies certify on different rebreathers, for example.
IANTD will certify you on most anything that has a loop.
And is sold in the US.

NAUI requires testing data to be submitted for review.
TDI requires liability insurance.
ANDI requires a certain production capability and continuity.

ANDI CSU (nitrox) allows two mixes to 50% were most classes teach 1 mix to 40% another.

Some certify for caves, others don't. And on and on.

No wonder that they do differ, especially the "tech agencies".
IAND (later IANTD) was founded in '86 to teach nitrox.
One of the people involved with founder Dick Rutkowski was Ed Betts, who a few years later fonded AND (ANDI). One must asume he wanted to do things differently. '93, '94, somewhere in that neighborhood, Bret Gilliam left IANTD and started TDI, so same thing again. Wouldn't make sense if they all had exactly the same courses.

ANDI was founded in 1988 by D.R. and E.B. they split around 1990 (dont know the exact date) ANDI was reincorporated in 1992
Tom Mount was an ANDI IT and Bret Gilliam was an ANDI Instructor as well as many otehr industry leaders..

Here is a quote that was in our CSU Text book years ago

"It's rare that a breakthrough in diving is implemented by an overnight invention. The practice of Enriched-Air diving has been around for over two decades but it took the vision of a few dedicated professional instructors to introduce its benefits to sport divers. The work of Ed Betts and American Nitrox Divers International to produce this text and an international training network for ANDI divers will be remembered as one of the more progressive innovations of the 1990's. The SafeAir® program which you are currently enrolled in will open your eyes to the many operational and safety advantages over conventional Air scuba diving. Consider yourself lucky to have obtained training from enlightened, progressive scuba professionals who are committed to making the best applications of available technology in the pursuit of increased diving safety and enjoyment."

Bret Gilliam (ANDI #31)

President, OCEAN TECH

***jradomski*** · 29th April 2005, 01:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

TDI requires liability insurance.

It was only TDI Usa and Canada,not sure what the current policy is.. but the "insurance" that I have been told is that SDS is responsible for it in its territories.

***caveseeker7*** · 29th April 2005, 01:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Tom Mount was an ANDI IT and Bret Gilliam was an ANDI Instructor as well as many otehr industry leaders..

All that inter-agency mingling is more incestious than Kentucky cousins.

As for the insurance issue, as I said I'm not sure how they solved it.
Hard to believe anything named YBOD can afford liability insurance in the US.

But since I neither dive one nor am intrested in TDI training I doubt I could care much less.

28th April 2005, 09:42	#1 (permalink)
jptaylor9 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 316	Why do the number of levels vary? Interested in why different agencies have fewer or more levels? Last edited by jptaylor9 : 25th May 2006 at 09:29.
(Online)

28th April 2005, 11:20	#2 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,110	because they're competing? if you all have the same product, where do you differentiate? Its also the result of differences of opinion/ethos... __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service
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28th April 2005, 16:39	#3 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,556	Because most everything else differs, too!? Different agencies certify on different rebreathers, for example. IANTD will certify you on most anything that has a loop. And is sold in the US. NAUI requires testing data to be submitted for review. TDI requires liability insurance. ANDI requires a certain production capability and continuity. ANDI CSU (nitrox) allows two mixes to 50% were most classes teach 1 mix to 40% another. Some certify for caves, others don't. And on and on. No wonder that they do differ, especially the "tech agencies". IAND (later IANTD) was founded in '86 to teach nitrox. One of the people involved with founder Dick Rutkowski was Ed Betts, who a few years later fonded AND (ANDI). One must asume he wanted to do things differently. '93, '94, somewhere in that neighborhood, Bret Gilliam left IANTD and started TDI, so same thing again. Wouldn't make sense if they all had exactly the same courses. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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28th April 2005, 16:45	#4 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,946	...all of the above + ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ £££££££££££££££££££££ Me, a cynic? __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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28th April 2005, 16:55	#5 (permalink)
*schford* RBW Founder Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,564	Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) TDI requires liability insurance. I thought that AP had no product liability insurance as it was far too costly - dont know about the others...
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28th April 2005, 18:19	#6 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,556	Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) I thought that AP had no product liability insurance as it was far too costly - dont know about the others... They don't, which is why TDI didn't certify on YBODs in the US until recently. Forgot the details, but APD somehow self-insures according to a TDI instructor. Something like that. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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29th April 2005, 00:35	#7 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,508	Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) They don't, which is why TDI didn't certify on YBODs in the US until recently. Forgot the details, but APD somehow self-insures according to a TDI instructor. Something like that. Self insurance? Isn't that like file chap 11 if anone tries to sue for big$$$$ __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
(Online)

29th April 2005, 01:02	#8 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Because most everything else differs, too!? Different agencies certify on different rebreathers, for example. IANTD will certify you on most anything that has a loop. And is sold in the US. NAUI requires testing data to be submitted for review. TDI requires liability insurance. ANDI requires a certain production capability and continuity. ANDI CSU (nitrox) allows two mixes to 50% were most classes teach 1 mix to 40% another. Some certify for caves, others don't. And on and on. No wonder that they do differ, especially the "tech agencies". IAND (later IANTD) was founded in '86 to teach nitrox. One of the people involved with founder Dick Rutkowski was Ed Betts, who a few years later fonded AND (ANDI). One must asume he wanted to do things differently. '93, '94, somewhere in that neighborhood, Bret Gilliam left IANTD and started TDI, so same thing again. Wouldn't make sense if they all had exactly the same courses. ANDI was founded in 1988 by D.R. and E.B. they split around 1990 (dont know the exact date) ANDI was reincorporated in 1992 Tom Mount was an ANDI IT and Bret Gilliam was an ANDI Instructor as well as many otehr industry leaders.. Here is a quote that was in our CSU Text book years ago "It's rare that a breakthrough in diving is implemented by an overnight invention. The practice of Enriched-Air diving has been around for over two decades but it took the vision of a few dedicated professional instructors to introduce its benefits to sport divers. The work of Ed Betts and American Nitrox Divers International to produce this text and an international training network for ANDI divers will be remembered as one of the more progressive innovations of the 1990's. The SafeAir® program which you are currently enrolled in will open your eyes to the many operational and safety advantages over conventional Air scuba diving. Consider yourself lucky to have obtained training from enlightened, progressive scuba professionals who are committed to making the best applications of available technology in the pursuit of increased diving safety and enjoyment." Bret Gilliam (ANDI #31) President, OCEAN TECH __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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29th April 2005, 01:07	#9 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) TDI requires liability insurance. It was only TDI Usa and Canada,not sure what the current policy is.. but the "insurance" that I have been told is that SDS is responsible for it in its territories. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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29th April 2005, 01:21	#10 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,556	Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Tom Mount was an ANDI IT and Bret Gilliam was an ANDI Instructor as well as many otehr industry leaders.. All that inter-agency mingling is more incestious than Kentucky cousins. As for the insurance issue, as I said I'm not sure how they solved it. Hard to believe anything named YBOD can afford liability insurance in the US. But since I neither dive one nor am intrested in TDI training I doubt I could care much less. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
(Offline)

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