Cross over courses - fact or fiction?

Drmike

The agencies talk about their existence but when Ive spoken to instuctors in reality is always:

"Oh the units are completely different so we dont do crossover courses"

Or

"This is a complex unit so we teach everyone as if they are new users"


I think this is BS. When I did my MK15.5 cross over I had to do the full course and to be honest what I needed to learn could have been covered easily in one day - max! I enjoyed the course and treated it more like a dive holiday - but I dont want to fork out the time and money for a full course everytime I change units - thats a rip off.


I dont need to do any of the non unit specific skills/drills. Come on running semiclosed? Manual injections? Hardly rocket science - if youve done this on one unit why repeat?. Seems to me there is only justification in teaching/charging for the unit specific stuff focusing MORE on maintenance and less on stuff that should be second nature to those who have done any Rebreather diving let alone a course at the same or higher levels on a different Rebreather.

Id like to run a poll to see how many people when they change units actually did a reduce cost/time unit cross over and how many got ripped off?

Im naturally not against training but I am against getting ripped off.


What is others experience?

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Wreck diving is a sport
Diving in general is a sport

'Rebreather diving' is not a sport
its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment

decoweenie

In 1997, I took one SCR course because I wanted to and had to in order to purchase - Halcyon PVR-BASC.

In 1998, I took one CCR course because I wanted to, but didn't have to in order to purchase - BMR-500.

Since then, I have owned and dived about 10 more different SCR and CCR units without taking a cross-over course. I wouldn't buy another unit if I have to take the full course, thus I don't have a Meg yet...

I don't count the Inspiration "course" I had to play a student for an IT class.

Personally, I do offer cross-over courses for the units I am certified to teach. If the students are competent, we do the minimum hours required and repeat some basic skills just to make sure the students are familiar with the new unit.

But the important part of the course is understanding the unit components and how to maintain/repair those are specific to the unit.

And the course price is about 1/2.

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deepnark

hi
ive got a cross over course booked from ybod to ck with deep blue ,so they can be found if you get the right guy to do the course.
Ray

jradomski

Mike,
I think its a tough call.. Ulimately its the instructor's name going on the card.. The only way the instructor can know if the student meets the requirements for the certification is to have them do all the skills.. I personally feel you cant practice skills too much.. I routinely practice them myself to stay sharp.

I think alot of the academics can be skipped (assuming the other training covered the required materials), and concentrate on the new knowledge and new material for the specific unit..

I still believe all the OW time should be spent, as per standards, but meeting the time requirements still involves the instructors time... I can see some of the pool time being reduced, but the overal length of the class shouldn't be cut down that much.. I cant see doing it for 50% because Its not going to be 50% shorter, but I do belive a discount should be offered based on whatever time is saved.. My basic classes run 5-6 days (depends on the student), and price it that way, if it still turned out to be a 5 day class, I would charge the same, but If I could cut it to a 4 day crossover I would give a 20% discount.. Under certain conditions It might be possible to cut it down to a 3 day class (assuming the student is good AND the day is long enough).. The first day would be the key being able to get the confined and 1st 2 dives in.. The academics and other maintenence issues could be covered with with the rest of the time on the other dive days.. Many agencies only allow credit for 2 dives a day to prevent quickie classes.

Personally the student thats looking for the quickest way out I don't want to train.. I HAVE turned down many a student because I didn;t like their attitude.. I don;t need the money that badly..

If I know the diver, I would definately give them more lattitude, but I'm still going to require everything that the standards dictate..

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Joe Radomski
CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer
ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10

All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.

mikedive

Hey guys,

In Protec we do crossover based on IANTD standard.
Our way to charge our clients is on daily basis. If I finish the hours/dives require on the standard and I fell the student need more time on the unit I would convince the student to do more hours because my name will be on his C-card.
Remember one thing, many divers stay way to long with out dive and in his mind he still ok but his dexterity say another thing.
I do on this way based on my experience teaching cave dive in Mexico where I saw many students coming back after six months or one year to finish his full cave and on the end need refresh almost the whole course.
Cheers,

Mike - www.protecdiving.com

Pierre Farrugia

Mike,

I think the major problem is, that no one dives the same and does same practise! From what I read from your posts you practise a lot and dive deep but I seen people coming to a 40m dive and with a lot of shiney stuff and when asked hard you will find out that they havn't dived for 6 months. So I understand what you mean, but how an inst can know what level you are in if he never say you before?

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Pierre Farrugia

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Nad

I agree with Joe,
It is also a question of responsability for the instructor (his name is on the card) and the agency also.

Nad

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jradomski

I couldn't agree more.. I have seen alot of CCR divers that havent practiced their bailout skills and basically needed retraining.. The best divers will always practice, unfortunately thats not the case for most divers..

__________________
Joe Radomski
CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer
ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10

All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.

JasonF

I can understand your frustration, It sounds like you might be the exception to the 80/20 rule. I've learned over the years that actions speak louder than words.

I few months ago I co-taught a SK Course for Diver with RECENT Advanced Nitrox and Evo Training June of 06'. To put it bluntly, there seems to be a lot of truth to the term "buying you certification". This diver had zero comprehension from his Advanced Nitrox course and Evo training, heck his Evo instructor never had him carry an off board bailout let alone practice going to his off board bailout. SCR mode? Sensor Check? Didn't know why the need and how to do it! Too many additional things to mention.

With this particular situation, we had to exceed minimum standards for the SK course and we had to reteach Advanced Nitrox so he could plan out his dives. BTW we did not charge the diver for doing additional dives for the SK course and reteaching his Advanced Nitrox Course!

Just like many Instructors on Rebreather World have a certain style in the way they educate and develop diver their divers, I do as well, when someone approaches me for training I charge the same price as someone who has never trained. Your probably asking why? Well I know each diver Is going to have certain strengths and weaknesses, when someone pays for an education, I am now engaged in a contractual obligation for providing an education and ensuring motor skills and diver retention. For someone like yourself who comes to my course with previous experience, great! I always suggest to keep an open mind, It gives you an opportunity to learn something new, increase your skills and/or streamline yourself (gear/trim in the water while doing skills )
We know there are good doctors and there are bad doctors in this world, we also know there are good instructors and there are bad instructors. For any level of diving, especially this level of diving there are 2 things that have to happen:
The first is for Instructors to provide a full education and not just meeting minimum standards. A good Instructor will raise the bar as the student divers start to show comprehension. An e.g. would be, If the instructor has students recover their loop in a kneeling position on a platform and the student does well, on the next dive have the student recover the loop in midwater with a visual reference, and then just have them do it in mid water. This technique should be applied to all skills. It also demonstrates to the diver practical application and proper technique of the skills.

The Second thing that must happen is the Student Diver needs to spend more time researching their Instructor by asking for background info, what's going to be covered in the course, logistics and some references. The student Diver also needs to ask a question if they don't quite understand something. This goes back to the 80/20 rule, where only 20% of the divers will do this, once certified the divers need to keep up/increase on the level of their current skills, I'm not saying that every dive has to be a training dive but the diver needs to own these skills.

In the long run, I know we are all committed to everyone's safty

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Jason R. Fisch

Training Director
The SCUBA Connection
Instructor Development and Diver Training Division
jasonf@tscscuba.com

JPJones

I follow IANTD standards for my crossovers and charge by what I have to do. In your case it would require 4 dives with 2 at you highest level and 400 minutes of loop time. If you were not an advanced diver it would be 2 dives and 210 minutes.

As far as doing basic skills it never hurts anyone and at least half the students I've seen the refresher was needed.

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