Cross over courses - fact or fiction?

***schford*** · 30th January 2006, 18:52

I can see Phis brain working over time here :-)

decoweenie · 30th January 2006, 18:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

I can see Phis brain working over time here :-)

How do I order ?

Genesis · 30th January 2006, 20:20

First question - "Is there a scrubber inside that can?" That's what Leon told me at one time he did for people who didn't have a Meg card..... Looks complete, but completely unusable.

Next one - the deco implication is intresting but consider this - you can bend the bejeezus out of yourself within the NDLs if you lose buoyancy control. So I don't consider that to be really much of a difference. Besides, in the ocean, who dives without a bag and spool to use as a deco line - either intentionally or as an "aw @##!it" provision?

decoweenie · 30th January 2006, 21:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

...Besides, in the ocean, who dives without a bag and spool to use as a deco line - either intentionally or as an "aw @##!it" provision?

I don't know about the rest of the other instructors, but if any of my mix students can't complete a deco profile without a vertical reference other than a depth meter, they don't pass the course.

**trob09** · 30th January 2006, 21:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

I don't know about the rest of the other instructors, but if any of my mix students can't complete a deco profile without a vertical reference other than a depth meter, they don't pass the course.

I don't know about everywhere, but in plenty of places completing a deco profile without a marker on the surface or a fixed line between the boat and the bottom gets you lost at sea.

I agree that a line should't be needed to hold stops, but that's not necessarily the only use for the line...or even the preferred use.

decoweenie · 30th January 2006, 22:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09)

I don't know about everywhere, but in plenty of places completing a deco profile without a marker on the surface or a fixed line between the boat and the bottom gets you lost at sea.

I agree that a line should't be needed to hold stops, but that's not necessarily the only use for the line...or even the preferred use.

Tim,

In the context of the conversation, I was referring to the actual skill of be able to hold the deco stops on a CCR. And not about using a surface marker.

Anyway, let's for fun say if a team is drifting on deco released from the wreck at the same time and the viz is just bad enough that you can't see your buddies.

If you happen to lose your DSMB, would you prefer to have the skill to deco in bluewater and drift at about the same rate as the rest of the team (and their DSMB's) ?

Or prefer to pop straight up and hail a helicopter to the chamber ?

Deep Thought · 31st January 2006, 01:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

The agencies talk about their existence but when Ive spoken to instuctors in reality is always:

"Oh the units are completely different so we dont do crossover courses"

Or

"This is a complex unit so we teach everyone as if they are new users"

I think this is BS. When I did my MK15.5 cross over I had to do the full course and to be honest what I needed to learn could have been covered easily in one day - max! I enjoyed the course and treated it more like a dive holiday - but I dont want to fork out the time and money for a full course everytime I change units - thats a rip off.

I dont need to do any of the non unit specific skills/drills. Come on running semiclosed? Manual injections? Hardly rocket science - if youve done this on one unit why repeat?. Seems to me there is only justification in teaching/charging for the unit specific stuff focusing MORE on maintenance and less on stuff that should be second nature to those who have done any Rebreather diving let alone a course at the same or higher levels on a different Rebreather.

Id like to run a poll to see how many people when they change units actually did a reduce cost/time unit cross over and how many got ripped off?

Im naturally not against training but I am against getting ripped off.

What is others experience?

Mike

I teach crossovers, and schedule students for the minimum time required by training agency standards “If” they measure up to the big talk. It starts out with a review of their previous experience and how active of diver they are. Students are informed up front that standards are minimum and I do not sign off a card until I feel the student is comfortable.

I have students who breeze through and students who struggle, one cannot tell and everyone should know the golden rule about making assumptions;

This thread if full of mistrust of a system that works well most times and unfortunately has a few bad experiences…but it does serve most people well. Students are not all alike, many of them have challenges, and I would bet that most of the seasoned instructors on this list would say they have been surprised or caught off guard by a student more than once.

I would agree that repeating drills can be a nuisance, especially if one is only meeting a requirement when the student has already demonstrated the skill proficiently. However there is a very strong value to repetition of skills on a new unit – by this I mean a unit that is designed differently. The concept of a skill is identical, but the reflex may be different; a unit such as an inspiration flushes much different than a Classic KISS, etc….The Meg oxygen manual injection is on the inhale lung, and the Optima is on the exhale lung, etc…

There is also a strong value to time on a unit before one obligates themselves to more advanced dive planning – what is the meaning of advanced - how would I know – it all depends on the divers prior experiences. I have met very confident divers and I have met very arrogant divers, it is the arrogant divers that I worry about cluttering up my dive site with inert bodies and paperwork to fill out – go dive somewhere else and danger others not me!

I would also agree that set up, maintenance, and unit specific changes should be the focus of the crossover. Yet this reminds me of instances where I receive instructions on how to set up my computer…sounds good at the time but I did not get enough time to let it sink in and when I am alone – no help – hmmm...how did that go together???? I think this is big variable that needs to be assed by each individual and tailored to their needs.

Training a diver is to achieve a goal that the student has in the most positive way; learn a new skill and have fun doing it, it’s not about the instructor beating their chest!

As part of my 12 step recovery therapy for Hypocrites Anonymous I admit my actions, such as the recent acquisition of an Optima and my protests to be checked out on the unit. After all I actively dive, own and teach on 5 different ccr’s so why would I need to go to school?

My argument was that for the most part ccr’s are more similar than dissimilar and it boils down to set up and procedures. If you have the correct habits and skills developed it would be like asking a driver to get a new license because they switched from a car to a truck, or an automatic transmission to a manual, or a motor cycle, airplane, helicopter….Oops! the last few are regulated…so it just goes to show that all means of transportation are not the same, nor are all rebreathers and if we want the little piece of plastic we have to jump through a few hoops along the way.

I’m not against training either, but I am against getting ripped off. I’ve taken a lot of training myself, and although I don’t think I have been ripped off I have had instructors who do not manage time well.

Time is everything, people complain about costs…you can have a little money or a lot of money and neither one will get you more time on this planet.

For those who are experienced and seek cross-training, do your research on the instructors and start a dialog, ask that your time be spent efficiently. And all should remember that this is a voluntary process, there is no CCR Police
–yet –

DT

30th January 2006, 18:52	#31 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? I can see Phis brain working over time here :-) __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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30th January 2006, 18:53	#32 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) I can see Phis brain working over time here :-) How do I order ? __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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30th January 2006, 20:20	#33 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,396	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? First question - "Is there a scrubber inside that can?" That's what Leon told me at one time he did for people who didn't have a Meg card..... Looks complete, but completely unusable. Next one - the deco implication is intresting but consider this - you can bend the bejeezus out of yourself within the NDLs if you lose buoyancy control. So I don't consider that to be really much of a difference. Besides, in the ocean, who dives without a bag and spool to use as a deco line - either intentionally or as an "aw @##!it" provision? __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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30th January 2006, 21:00	#34 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) ...Besides, in the ocean, who dives without a bag and spool to use as a deco line - either intentionally or as an "aw @##!it" provision? I don't know about the rest of the other instructors, but if any of my mix students can't complete a deco profile without a vertical reference other than a depth meter, they don't pass the course. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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30th January 2006, 21:47	#35 (permalink)
trob09 . Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 704	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) I don't know about the rest of the other instructors, but if any of my mix students can't complete a deco profile without a vertical reference other than a depth meter, they don't pass the course. I don't know about everywhere, but in plenty of places completing a deco profile without a marker on the surface or a fixed line between the boat and the bottom gets you lost at sea. I agree that a line should't be needed to hold stops, but that's not necessarily the only use for the line...or even the preferred use.
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30th January 2006, 22:16	#36 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09) I don't know about everywhere, but in plenty of places completing a deco profile without a marker on the surface or a fixed line between the boat and the bottom gets you lost at sea. I agree that a line should't be needed to hold stops, but that's not necessarily the only use for the line...or even the preferred use. Tim, In the context of the conversation, I was referring to the actual skill of be able to hold the deco stops on a CCR. And not about using a surface marker. Anyway, let's for fun say if a team is drifting on deco released from the wreck at the same time and the viz is just bad enough that you can't see your buddies. If you happen to lose your DSMB, would you prefer to have the skill to deco in bluewater and drift at about the same rate as the rest of the team (and their DSMB's) ? Or prefer to pop straight up and hail a helicopter to the chamber ? __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

31st January 2006, 01:48	#37 (permalink)
Deep Thought Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Great Lakes Posts: 190	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) The agencies talk about their existence but when Ive spoken to instuctors in reality is always: "Oh the units are completely different so we dont do crossover courses" Or "This is a complex unit so we teach everyone as if they are new users" I think this is BS. When I did my MK15.5 cross over I had to do the full course and to be honest what I needed to learn could have been covered easily in one day - max! I enjoyed the course and treated it more like a dive holiday - but I dont want to fork out the time and money for a full course everytime I change units - thats a rip off. I dont need to do any of the non unit specific skills/drills. Come on running semiclosed? Manual injections? Hardly rocket science - if youve done this on one unit why repeat?. Seems to me there is only justification in teaching/charging for the unit specific stuff focusing MORE on maintenance and less on stuff that should be second nature to those who have done any Rebreather diving let alone a course at the same or higher levels on a different Rebreather. Id like to run a poll to see how many people when they change units actually did a reduce cost/time unit cross over and how many got ripped off? Im naturally not against training but I am against getting ripped off. What is others experience? Mike I teach crossovers, and schedule students for the minimum time required by training agency standards “If” they measure up to the big talk. It starts out with a review of their previous experience and how active of diver they are. Students are informed up front that standards are minimum and I do not sign off a card until I feel the student is comfortable. I have students who breeze through and students who struggle, one cannot tell and everyone should know the golden rule about making assumptions; This thread if full of mistrust of a system that works well most times and unfortunately has a few bad experiences…but it does serve most people well. Students are not all alike, many of them have challenges, and I would bet that most of the seasoned instructors on this list would say they have been surprised or caught off guard by a student more than once. I would agree that repeating drills can be a nuisance, especially if one is only meeting a requirement when the student has already demonstrated the skill proficiently. However there is a very strong value to repetition of skills on a new unit – by this I mean a unit that is designed differently. The concept of a skill is identical, but the reflex may be different; a unit such as an inspiration flushes much different than a Classic KISS, etc….The Meg oxygen manual injection is on the inhale lung, and the Optima is on the exhale lung, etc… There is also a strong value to time on a unit before one obligates themselves to more advanced dive planning – what is the meaning of advanced - how would I know – it all depends on the divers prior experiences. I have met very confident divers and I have met very arrogant divers, it is the arrogant divers that I worry about cluttering up my dive site with inert bodies and paperwork to fill out – go dive somewhere else and danger others not me! I would also agree that set up, maintenance, and unit specific changes should be the focus of the crossover. Yet this reminds me of instances where I receive instructions on how to set up my computer…sounds good at the time but I did not get enough time to let it sink in and when I am alone – no help – hmmm...how did that go together???? I think this is big variable that needs to be assed by each individual and tailored to their needs. Training a diver is to achieve a goal that the student has in the most positive way; learn a new skill and have fun doing it, it’s not about the instructor beating their chest! As part of my 12 step recovery therapy for Hypocrites Anonymous I admit my actions, such as the recent acquisition of an Optima and my protests to be checked out on the unit. After all I actively dive, own and teach on 5 different ccr’s so why would I need to go to school? My argument was that for the most part ccr’s are more similar than dissimilar and it boils down to set up and procedures. If you have the correct habits and skills developed it would be like asking a driver to get a new license because they switched from a car to a truck, or an automatic transmission to a manual, or a motor cycle, airplane, helicopter….Oops! the last few are regulated…so it just goes to show that all means of transportation are not the same, nor are all rebreathers and if we want the little piece of plastic we have to jump through a few hoops along the way. I’m not against training either, but I am against getting ripped off. I’ve taken a lot of training myself, and although I don’t think I have been ripped off I have had instructors who do not manage time well. Time is everything, people complain about costs…you can have a little money or a lot of money and neither one will get you more time on this planet. For those who are experienced and seek cross-training, do your research on the instructors and start a dialog, ask that your time be spent efficiently. And all should remember that this is a voluntary process, there is no CCR Police –yet – DT __________________ Creature Of Habits; Mostly Bad www.gudcscuba.com
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