Cross over courses - fact or fiction?

shell-back · 30th January 2006, 02:45

the Fisch-ster has spoken.

Damn I knew it was you before I hit the bottom of the post.

Mike · 30th January 2006, 03:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Ulimately its the instructor's name going on the card.. The only way the instructor can know if the student meets the requirements for the certification is to have them do all the skills..

I personally feel you cant practice skills too much.. I routinely practice them myself to stay sharp.

I think this is where we have a divergence of opinion between instructors and students/consumers.

As a consumer, I wish to pay for the instructor to give me the benefit of all the knowledge they have on a particular unit - to be honest I'm completely indifferent as to whether the instructor thinks that after a handful of dives on a new unit that I am in anyway competant on it. That's not the point of the training from my perspective - I want to learn all I can, not satisfy someone that I can manage to perform some task to a minimum acceptable standard once.

Without intending offence, I actually beleive it is somewhat arrogant of any instructor to think that they can get a student to a satisfactory level of competance in a handful of dives. To focus on meeting performance standards is somewhat meaningless when the standards must, by necessity, be quite low.

A slightly tongue in cheek question; If, as an instructor, you beleive that if a student is competant once they have passed your course, why make people wait to do trimix (etc.). If they are competant (and they must be, as you have passed them

) then why not roll straight into advanced trimix after initial training, or a crossover?

For me, a course is an opportunity for me to learn from someone with good experience. From my perspective, a certification card is the instructor certifying that they have given me all the information they have relevant to the course being undertaken. I can be satisfied that I have the basis to go away and actually become competant at whatever it is I'm doing.

Perhaps it should be the consumer who signs off the engagement as complete, much like it is in most other fields where a consultant is enguaged to impart expert knowledge?

Mike

Genesis · 30th January 2006, 04:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

Perhaps it should be the consumer who signs off the engagement as complete, much like it is in most other fields where a consultant is enguaged to impart expert knowledge?

Mike

This is an interesting perspective.

As someone who has throughout his professional career been paid for impart knowledge to people for money on a contract basis, this is indeed pretty much how it works.

You define a set of tasks and set me to them. You also tell me when the tasks are complete, and stop paying me. If you don't like the progress I make for the money you're spending, you fire me and bring in someone else to do what you hired me to do, but judged me to have failed at.

Once you've gained whatever you set out to have me do, you're free to do whatever you like what that knowledge. Sometimes people use it (hopefully to their advantage), sometimes they sit on it, and sometimes they almost literally burn it. More than once I've been brought in to evaluate or implement a thing and the results of my work have led the person who wrote the checks to determine that what they were trying to do was stupid - or unattainable within their requirements - in the first place. More than once I've told the person hiring me that either at the outset or very early on in the engagement, yet they have persisted in wanting the job completed. At completion the light went on and they came to the conclusion that they should have listened to me three months earlier - it would have saved themsleves tens of thousands of dollars in billed hours......

I need to think on this one Mike..... but in general, I think you've hit on something here in that this is much closer to how I view instruction than the "generally accepted model."

lbihler · 30th January 2006, 05:30

Basically I think a cross over course must be customisable by the instructor.
A customer doesn't need the same course content if he dives a rebreather 10 days a year and if he dives a rebreather every day.
In my case it was easier for the instructor, I took my Evolution course and then did a cross over to the meg the day after with the same instructor (1 day course).
I liked it that way.
If I had been out of rebreather diving for a month, I would have needed a longer time for sure, and certainly a full course if I had been out ofrebreather diving for about half a year.
Now I m about to order a meg, and the day I ll get it, I ll definitely need a refresh course even if I dive an evo from time to time (rental) while waiting for my meg to come.

.. I liked the consulting / teaching comparison ....

Laurent

decoweenie · 30th January 2006, 06:02

Mike,

Excellent post and well-balanced point of view.

Just some personal comment about the issue of competency after the course...

IMHO, after the mod-1 course, the instructor signed off the certification when he is satisfied that the student is competent to do shallow dives on his own to gain more experience and skills. Thus the reason to require more hours (read: experience and skills) to go to the next module (i.e. normoxic trimix, trimix).

An example that might not fit perfectly, but hopefully will get my point across... Take driving education, you complete the course and get your learner permit or license. You are a beginner driver who will need to develop experience and driving skills.

Then after a while, you will be ready to start your racing training.

Even during the beginner course, I usually throw in a few "extra" skills not-required by any agency. And the level of complexity depends on how I think the students will be able to cope with it. Without going into great details, these extra skills could be anything as simple as a broken mirror to a failed hydraulic brake line or blown tire (all per-say). The idea is to prepare the students for some real-world emergency when they are on their own.

So, yes, when I think they are competent to dive the units on their own after a 5-day course, I feel quite confident personally.

***Decodiver*** · 30th January 2006, 08:30

I am with Phi on this.

Training is not about getting someone to perform a skill once, then ticking it off.

It is about getting them to consistently, ie 100%, perform the skill to a particular standard.

Crossovers are somewhat different in that a student should have CCR knowledge and ability, parts of this are transferable and other parts not.

Now everyone does the skills, if they are rusty the crossover can take as long as a Mod 1, if they are spot-on the course duration is tailored, the price however, is not.

I will not do a crossover for someone straight out of Mod 1 on another CCR, they have received training, but have little experience, and in my considered opinion, it is experience that allows me to tailor a crossover accordingly.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

Nick uk. · 30th January 2006, 08:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by deepnark)

hi
ive got a cross over course booked from ybod to ck with deep blue ,so they can be found if you get the right guy to do the course.
Ray

I think that the CK and the YBOD are two diffrent enough machines to warrant two diffrent courses.

decoweenie · 30th January 2006, 09:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by deepnark)

ive got a cross over course booked from ybod to ck with deep blue ,so they can be found if you get the right guy to do the course.

I missed this one.

Just curious, who is the instructor at Deep Blue (UK) that owns, dives and teaches a CK ?

***Decodiver*** · 30th January 2006, 09:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

I missed this one.

Just curious, who is the instructor at Deep Blue (UK) that owns, dives and teaches a CK ?

Hi Phi,

Rich Stevenson owns and dives a KISS and has his instructor course booked with Dave Thompson in about 3 weeks time I believe.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

decoweenie · 30th January 2006, 10:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver)

Rich Stevenson owns and dives a KISS and has his instructor course booked with Dave Thompson in about 3 weeks time I believe.

Thanks Dave, I wasn't aware that Rich is a CK diver since I don't think he is on the KISS list.

30th January 2006, 02:45	#11 (permalink)
shell-back I do all my own stunts Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Azimuth Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Azimuth Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: middle of US Posts: 481	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? the Fisch-ster has spoken. Damn I knew it was you before I hit the bottom of the post.
(Offline)

30th January 2006, 03:43	#12 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 327	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Ulimately its the instructor's name going on the card.. The only way the instructor can know if the student meets the requirements for the certification is to have them do all the skills.. I personally feel you cant practice skills too much.. I routinely practice them myself to stay sharp. I think this is where we have a divergence of opinion between instructors and students/consumers. As a consumer, I wish to pay for the instructor to give me the benefit of all the knowledge they have on a particular unit - to be honest I'm completely indifferent as to whether the instructor thinks that after a handful of dives on a new unit that I am in anyway competant on it. That's not the point of the training from my perspective - I want to learn all I can, not satisfy someone that I can manage to perform some task to a minimum acceptable standard once. Without intending offence, I actually beleive it is somewhat arrogant of any instructor to think that they can get a student to a satisfactory level of competance in a handful of dives. To focus on meeting performance standards is somewhat meaningless when the standards must, by necessity, be quite low. A slightly tongue in cheek question; If, as an instructor, you beleive that if a student is competant once they have passed your course, why make people wait to do trimix (etc.). If they are competant (and they must be, as you have passed them ) then why not roll straight into advanced trimix after initial training, or a crossover? For me, a course is an opportunity for me to learn from someone with good experience. From my perspective, a certification card is the instructor certifying that they have given me all the information they have relevant to the course being undertaken. I can be satisfied that I have the basis to go away and actually become competant at whatever it is I'm doing. Perhaps it should be the consumer who signs off the engagement as complete, much like it is in most other fields where a consultant is enguaged to impart expert knowledge? Mike __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop
(Offline)

30th January 2006, 04:31	#13 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike) Perhaps it should be the consumer who signs off the engagement as complete, much like it is in most other fields where a consultant is enguaged to impart expert knowledge? Mike This is an interesting perspective. As someone who has throughout his professional career been paid for impart knowledge to people for money on a contract basis, this is indeed pretty much how it works. You define a set of tasks and set me to them. You also tell me when the tasks are complete, and stop paying me. If you don't like the progress I make for the money you're spending, you fire me and bring in someone else to do what you hired me to do, but judged me to have failed at. Once you've gained whatever you set out to have me do, you're free to do whatever you like what that knowledge. Sometimes people use it (hopefully to their advantage), sometimes they sit on it, and sometimes they almost literally burn it. More than once I've been brought in to evaluate or implement a thing and the results of my work have led the person who wrote the checks to determine that what they were trying to do was stupid - or unattainable within their requirements - in the first place. More than once I've told the person hiring me that either at the outset or very early on in the engagement, yet they have persisted in wanting the job completed. At completion the light went on and they came to the conclusion that they should have listened to me three months earlier - it would have saved themsleves tens of thousands of dollars in billed hours...... I need to think on this one Mike..... but in general, I think you've hit on something here in that this is much closer to how I view instruction than the "generally accepted model." __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket Last edited by Genesis : 30th January 2006 at 04:33.
(Offline)

30th January 2006, 05:30	#14 (permalink)
lbihler New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bangkok Posts: 56	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? Basically I think a cross over course must be customisable by the instructor. A customer doesn't need the same course content if he dives a rebreather 10 days a year and if he dives a rebreather every day. In my case it was easier for the instructor, I took my Evolution course and then did a cross over to the meg the day after with the same instructor (1 day course). I liked it that way. If I had been out of rebreather diving for a month, I would have needed a longer time for sure, and certainly a full course if I had been out ofrebreather diving for about half a year. Now I m about to order a meg, and the day I ll get it, I ll definitely need a refresh course even if I dive an evo from time to time (rental) while waiting for my meg to come. .. I liked the consulting / teaching comparison .... Laurent
(Offline)

30th January 2006, 06:02	#15 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? Mike, Excellent post and well-balanced point of view. Just some personal comment about the issue of competency after the course... IMHO, after the mod-1 course, the instructor signed off the certification when he is satisfied that the student is competent to do shallow dives on his own to gain more experience and skills. Thus the reason to require more hours (read: experience and skills) to go to the next module (i.e. normoxic trimix, trimix). An example that might not fit perfectly, but hopefully will get my point across... Take driving education, you complete the course and get your learner permit or license. You are a beginner driver who will need to develop experience and driving skills. Then after a while, you will be ready to start your racing training. Even during the beginner course, I usually throw in a few "extra" skills not-required by any agency. And the level of complexity depends on how I think the students will be able to cope with it. Without going into great details, these extra skills could be anything as simple as a broken mirror to a failed hydraulic brake line or blown tire (all per-say). The idea is to prepare the students for some real-world emergency when they are on their own. So, yes, when I think they are competent to dive the units on their own after a 5-day course, I feel quite confident personally. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

30th January 2006, 08:30	#16 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,179	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? I am with Phi on this. Training is not about getting someone to perform a skill once, then ticking it off. It is about getting them to consistently, ie 100%, perform the skill to a particular standard. Crossovers are somewhat different in that a student should have CCR knowledge and ability, parts of this are transferable and other parts not. Now everyone does the skills, if they are rusty the crossover can take as long as a Mod 1, if they are spot-on the course duration is tailored, the price however, is not. I will not do a crossover for someone straight out of Mod 1 on another CCR, they have received training, but have little experience, and in my considered opinion, it is experience that allows me to tailor a crossover accordingly. Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions Last edited by Decodiver : 30th January 2006 at 10:07.
(Offline)

30th January 2006, 08:55	#17 (permalink)
Nick uk. Made in England. Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Azimuth Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Viale C.Colombo 75 Marina di Carrara. MS 54036 Italy Posts: 579	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? Quote: (Originally Posted by deepnark) hi ive got a cross over course booked from ybod to ck with deep blue ,so they can be found if you get the right guy to do the course. Ray I think that the CK and the YBOD are two diffrent enough machines to warrant two diffrent courses. __________________ If it aint broke....don't fix it, and if it is.............well......get another one! divechief2000@hotmail.com
(Offline)

30th January 2006, 09:04	#18 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? Quote: (Originally Posted by deepnark) ive got a cross over course booked from ybod to ck with deep blue ,so they can be found if you get the right guy to do the course. I missed this one. Just curious, who is the instructor at Deep Blue (UK) that owns, dives and teaches a CK ? __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

30th January 2006, 09:51	#19 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,179	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) I missed this one. Just curious, who is the instructor at Deep Blue (UK) that owns, dives and teaches a CK ? Hi Phi, Rich Stevenson owns and dives a KISS and has his instructor course booked with Dave Thompson in about 3 weeks time I believe. Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
(Offline)

30th January 2006, 10:45	#20 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Cross over courses - fact or fiction? Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver) Rich Stevenson owns and dives a KISS and has his instructor course booked with Dave Thompson in about 3 weeks time I believe. Thanks Dave, I wasn't aware that Rich is a CK diver since I don't think he is on the KISS list. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode