SMI Prism training

***jradomski*** · 13th December 2005, 00:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

I'm in the middle of resolving a problem on my Prism at the moment, so I guess this counts as an example.
On / Off reed switch is sticking on, noticed as I was about to get on a boat on sunday.
Decided to disable the switch (after chatting to another Prism diver) in the off position and dive on the secondary only. Dive was rec - 28m depth for 30 minutes bottom time.
Primary breathing supply - Prism with analog guage
Secondary breathing supply - OC bailout

I don't see what the big deal is - while everything's working I'll stay on the loop, if the secondary fails, or is giving readings I don't like, go semiclosed or bail to OC. I don't think there is a realistic chance of the secondary failing in a manner that I will not notice, so I do not see any increased RISK over diving a kiss. There may be an increased chance of having to bail out, but even that is debateable. (Really depends on whether you would continue to dive a kiss if one display failed and you had two opertational. If not, then in both the kiss case, and the Prism case, one failure ends the dive).

So - I did the dive, running MLV and checking one or three sensors as I saw fit throughout the dive. Good practice to run manually.

On the phone today, and SMI are send out a new switch, should get it in time to dive this weekend. If that was going to be an issue, I had two other offers of a replacement switch.

So for me;
I'd dive a Kiss with one display down, and two working
I'll dive the Prism with the Primary off, using the secondary only
I would not dive the Inspo on one handset as I'm not convinced that a problem on one handset could not affect the other
I don't know enough about a Meg to comment.

BTW - the car brake analogy is flawed
1.most modern cars run seperate hydrolic circuits front and rear - so have some redundancy built in.
2. I have raced cars (lotus 7, porsche 924/928 hybrid, formula Vee) with both cable and independant hydrolic handbrakes. They will not do shit to stop you in any timeframe that makes a difference, particularly in road rallies.
3. Being able to lock a set of wheels with a braking system is absolutely no indication that it will be able to stop you from 200 kmph. Being able to modulate pressure so you don't lock the wheels, and then bleed off a whole bunch of energy is a lot more difficult.

Off topic except to say that;
Racing my lotus I'm quite aware that one failure in a critical system (steering would be the worst) and it's going to be a bad day. Diving the Prism, even with the electronic off, I'm quite confident that I can easily survive a major component failure and make it home without stress.
Driving a car at speed, a 10 second failure to observe and react will be bad. Diving the rebreather, even manually, not paying attenting for a few minutes is not likely to have any effect.

I feel safer on the racetrack than driving on the road, and safer on the rebreather than on the track. (Racing is more fun though)

Mike

I agree I am not totally convinced that one failure on an insp doesnt guarantee it doesnt effect the other although all the failures I have seen haven't.. I know on the HH the isolation is very good.. on the earliest HH even feeding solenod voltage on a flooded conntector only altered the po2 reading on the secondary by about .03 while it was firing (no change while idle), later units there is higher isolation and no change... Shorting has no effect on the secondary either...

I know I could dive it by the secondary, but I don't believe its a good practice to get into (and a bad example) to start a dive with a failed piece of gear..

I also don;t belive in turning anything off that I want to turn back on..
I take the attitude if you turn it off don't expect it to come back on.. carry a backup... I guess this comes from my cave training many many moons ago
that stressed extra backups with lights since you figured one of your backups may not work when you need it..

***caveseeker7*** · 13th December 2005, 00:37

Intresting post Mike, thanks.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

I feel safer on the racetrack than driving on the road, and safer on the rebreather than on the track. (Racing is more fun though)

You need scooter.

***jradomski*** · 13th December 2005, 00:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Intresting post Mike, thanks.

You need scooter.

I'll second that!

silent running · 13th December 2005, 01:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

I'm in the middle of resolving a problem on my Prism at the moment, so I guess this counts as an example.
On / Off reed switch is sticking on, noticed as I was about to get on a boat on sunday.
Decided to disable the switch (after chatting to another Prism diver) in the off position and dive on the secondary only. Dive was rec - 28m depth for 30 minutes bottom time.
Primary breathing supply - Prism with analog guage
Secondary breathing supply - OC bailout

I don't see what the big deal is - while everything's working I'll stay on the loop, if the secondary fails, or is giving readings I don't like, go semiclosed or bail to OC. I don't think there is a realistic chance of the secondary failing in a manner that I will not notice, so I do not see any increased RISK over diving a kiss. There may be an increased chance of having to bail out, but even that is debateable. (Really depends on whether you would continue to dive a kiss if one display failed and you had two opertational. If not, then in both the kiss case, and the Prism case, one failure ends the dive).

So - I did the dive, running MLV and checking one or three sensors as I saw fit throughout the dive. Good practice to run manually.

On the phone today, and SMI are send out a new switch, should get it in time to dive this weekend. If that was going to be an issue, I had two other offers of a replacement switch.

So for me;
I'd dive a Kiss with one display down, and two working
I'll dive the Prism with the Primary off, using the secondary only
I would not dive the Inspo on one handset as I'm not convinced that a problem on one handset could not affect the other
I don't know enough about a Meg to comment.

BTW - the car brake analogy is flawed
1.most modern cars run seperate hydrolic circuits front and rear - so have some redundancy built in.
2. I have raced cars (lotus 7, porsche 924/928 hybrid, formula Vee) with both cable and independant hydrolic handbrakes. They will not do shit to stop you in any timeframe that makes a difference, particularly in road rallies.
3. Being able to lock a set of wheels with a braking system is absolutely no indication that it will be able to stop you from 200 kmph. Being able to modulate pressure so you don't lock the wheels, and then bleed off a whole bunch of energy is a lot more difficult.

Mike

Hi Mike, I made things more complicated with my car brake analogy than need be. I was merely pointing out that the mechanical linkage btw the pedal and the rest of the brake system very occaisionally fails and that having a duplicate redundant pedal next to the primary pedal linked to the same brake system would be analogous to having 2 Prism 2ndarys-not necessary as both work well enough and are simple enough not to need true full, redundancy.
Well put, your list of conditions for diving the Kiss and Prism, I agree whole heartedly.-Andy

***caveseeker7*** · 14th December 2005, 00:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

How affordably could you order a complete spare PRISM electronics Head.. is it Less/equal to $3000?? If so thats good to know.. I wasn't aware that anyone could just order a spare head to have...

You have to own a unit, but spare heads can be ordered. MSRP is $3,500.

***jradomski*** · 14th December 2005, 00:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

You have to own a unit, but spare heads can be ordered. MSRP is $3,500.

Thanks.. will file that info away...

as a summary for Spare/replacement electronics

KISS triple displays $722 (kidney or sport pod just a bit extra)
INSP $2700 (last time I checked)
HammerHead $3000
Prism $3500

***caveseeker7*** · 14th December 2005, 05:04

Classic or Vision equipped head replacement on the Inspiration?
Pod and kidney should count, maybe even the entire Classic's head.
After all that's what you get with all the others.

Bubble Boy · 14th December 2005, 05:57

I'm not sure if they will still do it (very busy with back orders) but I believe SMI used to sell the lectrics only. That is to say they would graft PRISM electrics into any unit you supplied (within reason). WHen I ordered my Mk16 it had PRISM electrics grafted into it instead of the standard electrics.

decoweenie · 14th December 2005, 06:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by Bubble Boy)

That is to say they would graft PRISM electrics into any unit you supplied (within reason). WHen I ordered my Mk16 it had PRISM electrics grafted into it instead of the standard electrics.

Simon,

Just curious. What is the cost of such operation ? And how long did it take ?

Thanks...

***caveseeker7*** · 14th December 2005, 07:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by Bubble Boy)

That is to say they would graft PRISM electrics into any unit you supplied .
When I ordered my Mk16 ...

Somehow I doubt it. Your MK16 is really just an older larger version of the
SM1600 they used to build up, so it wasn't much of a stretch. And depending
on the original electronics the only way to sell the unit. I wonder if the
controller for the piezo-electronic valve works with a solenoid.

Anyway, from what I've seen and heard when Pete was still here in CA he ...
rather not work on MK series rigs anymore.

Intresting question, though. I've had people wondering about adding HH or
Shearwater electronics to the PRISM more often than the other way around.

13th December 2005, 00:28	#41 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,846	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike) I'm in the middle of resolving a problem on my Prism at the moment, so I guess this counts as an example. On / Off reed switch is sticking on, noticed as I was about to get on a boat on sunday. Decided to disable the switch (after chatting to another Prism diver) in the off position and dive on the secondary only. Dive was rec - 28m depth for 30 minutes bottom time. Primary breathing supply - Prism with analog guage Secondary breathing supply - OC bailout I don't see what the big deal is - while everything's working I'll stay on the loop, if the secondary fails, or is giving readings I don't like, go semiclosed or bail to OC. I don't think there is a realistic chance of the secondary failing in a manner that I will not notice, so I do not see any increased RISK over diving a kiss. There may be an increased chance of having to bail out, but even that is debateable. (Really depends on whether you would continue to dive a kiss if one display failed and you had two opertational. If not, then in both the kiss case, and the Prism case, one failure ends the dive). So - I did the dive, running MLV and checking one or three sensors as I saw fit throughout the dive. Good practice to run manually. On the phone today, and SMI are send out a new switch, should get it in time to dive this weekend. If that was going to be an issue, I had two other offers of a replacement switch. So for me; I'd dive a Kiss with one display down, and two working I'll dive the Prism with the Primary off, using the secondary only I would not dive the Inspo on one handset as I'm not convinced that a problem on one handset could not affect the other I don't know enough about a Meg to comment. BTW - the car brake analogy is flawed 1.most modern cars run seperate hydrolic circuits front and rear - so have some redundancy built in. 2. I have raced cars (lotus 7, porsche 924/928 hybrid, formula Vee) with both cable and independant hydrolic handbrakes. They will not do shit to stop you in any timeframe that makes a difference, particularly in road rallies. 3. Being able to lock a set of wheels with a braking system is absolutely no indication that it will be able to stop you from 200 kmph. Being able to modulate pressure so you don't lock the wheels, and then bleed off a whole bunch of energy is a lot more difficult. Off topic except to say that; Racing my lotus I'm quite aware that one failure in a critical system (steering would be the worst) and it's going to be a bad day. Diving the Prism, even with the electronic off, I'm quite confident that I can easily survive a major component failure and make it home without stress. Driving a car at speed, a 10 second failure to observe and react will be bad. Diving the rebreather, even manually, not paying attenting for a few minutes is not likely to have any effect. I feel safer on the racetrack than driving on the road, and safer on the rebreather than on the track. (Racing is more fun though) Mike I agree I am not totally convinced that one failure on an insp doesnt guarantee it doesnt effect the other although all the failures I have seen haven't.. I know on the HH the isolation is very good.. on the earliest HH even feeding solenod voltage on a flooded conntector only altered the po2 reading on the secondary by about .03 while it was firing (no change while idle), later units there is higher isolation and no change... Shorting has no effect on the secondary either... I know I could dive it by the secondary, but I don't believe its a good practice to get into (and a bad example) to start a dive with a failed piece of gear.. I also don;t belive in turning anything off that I want to turn back on.. I take the attitude if you turn it off don't expect it to come back on.. carry a backup... I guess this comes from my cave training many many moons ago that stressed extra backups with lights since you figured one of your backups may not work when you need it.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Online)

13th December 2005, 00:37	#42 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,402	Re: SMI Prism training Intresting post Mike, thanks. Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike) I feel safer on the racetrack than driving on the road, and safer on the rebreather than on the track. (Racing is more fun though) You need scooter. __________________ Cheers Stefan "It is still a good day if you are on the green side of the grass! Su amigo Roberto!" Sponsor Lou in Race For Life!
(Offline)

13th December 2005, 00:55	#43 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,846	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Intresting post Mike, thanks. You need scooter. I'll second that! __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Online)

13th December 2005, 01:32	#44 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,808	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike) I'm in the middle of resolving a problem on my Prism at the moment, so I guess this counts as an example. On / Off reed switch is sticking on, noticed as I was about to get on a boat on sunday. Decided to disable the switch (after chatting to another Prism diver) in the off position and dive on the secondary only. Dive was rec - 28m depth for 30 minutes bottom time. Primary breathing supply - Prism with analog guage Secondary breathing supply - OC bailout I don't see what the big deal is - while everything's working I'll stay on the loop, if the secondary fails, or is giving readings I don't like, go semiclosed or bail to OC. I don't think there is a realistic chance of the secondary failing in a manner that I will not notice, so I do not see any increased RISK over diving a kiss. There may be an increased chance of having to bail out, but even that is debateable. (Really depends on whether you would continue to dive a kiss if one display failed and you had two opertational. If not, then in both the kiss case, and the Prism case, one failure ends the dive). So - I did the dive, running MLV and checking one or three sensors as I saw fit throughout the dive. Good practice to run manually. On the phone today, and SMI are send out a new switch, should get it in time to dive this weekend. If that was going to be an issue, I had two other offers of a replacement switch. So for me; I'd dive a Kiss with one display down, and two working I'll dive the Prism with the Primary off, using the secondary only I would not dive the Inspo on one handset as I'm not convinced that a problem on one handset could not affect the other I don't know enough about a Meg to comment. BTW - the car brake analogy is flawed 1.most modern cars run seperate hydrolic circuits front and rear - so have some redundancy built in. 2. I have raced cars (lotus 7, porsche 924/928 hybrid, formula Vee) with both cable and independant hydrolic handbrakes. They will not do shit to stop you in any timeframe that makes a difference, particularly in road rallies. 3. Being able to lock a set of wheels with a braking system is absolutely no indication that it will be able to stop you from 200 kmph. Being able to modulate pressure so you don't lock the wheels, and then bleed off a whole bunch of energy is a lot more difficult. Mike Hi Mike, I made things more complicated with my car brake analogy than need be. I was merely pointing out that the mechanical linkage btw the pedal and the rest of the brake system very occaisionally fails and that having a duplicate redundant pedal next to the primary pedal linked to the same brake system would be analogous to having 2 Prism 2ndarys-not necessary as both work well enough and are simple enough not to need true full, redundancy. Well put, your list of conditions for diving the Kiss and Prism, I agree whole heartedly.-Andy
(Offline)

14th December 2005, 00:28	#45 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,402	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) How affordably could you order a complete spare PRISM electronics Head.. is it Less/equal to $3000?? If so thats good to know.. I wasn't aware that anyone could just order a spare head to have... You have to own a unit, but spare heads can be ordered. MSRP is $3,500. __________________ Cheers Stefan "It is still a good day if you are on the green side of the grass! Su amigo Roberto!" Sponsor Lou in Race For Life!
(Offline)

14th December 2005, 00:46	#46 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,846	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) You have to own a unit, but spare heads can be ordered. MSRP is $3,500. Thanks.. will file that info away... as a summary for Spare/replacement electronics KISS triple displays $722 (kidney or sport pod just a bit extra) INSP $2700 (last time I checked) HammerHead $3000 Prism $3500 __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Online)

14th December 2005, 05:04	#47 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,402	Re: SMI Prism training Classic or Vision equipped head replacement on the Inspiration? Pod and kidney should count, maybe even the entire Classic's head. After all that's what you get with all the others. __________________ Cheers Stefan "It is still a good day if you are on the green side of the grass! Su amigo Roberto!" Sponsor Lou in Race For Life!
(Offline)

14th December 2005, 05:57	#48 (permalink)
Bubble Boy PRISMs are kewl Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz MK 15.X Other CCR Dolphin Ray Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 132	Re: SMI Prism training I'm not sure if they will still do it (very busy with back orders) but I believe SMI used to sell the lectrics only. That is to say they would graft PRISM electrics into any unit you supplied (within reason). WHen I ordered my Mk16 it had PRISM electrics grafted into it instead of the standard electrics.
(Offline)

14th December 2005, 06:11	#49 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by Bubble Boy) That is to say they would graft PRISM electrics into any unit you supplied (within reason). WHen I ordered my Mk16 it had PRISM electrics grafted into it instead of the standard electrics. Simon, Just curious. What is the cost of such operation ? And how long did it take ? Thanks... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

14th December 2005, 07:48	#50 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,402	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by Bubble Boy) That is to say they would graft PRISM electrics into any unit you supplied . When I ordered my Mk16 ... Somehow I doubt it. Your MK16 is really just an older larger version of the SM1600 they used to build up, so it wasn't much of a stretch. And depending on the original electronics the only way to sell the unit. I wonder if the controller for the piezo-electronic valve works with a solenoid. Anyway, from what I've seen and heard when Pete was still here in CA he ... rather not work on MK series rigs anymore. Intresting question, though. I've had people wondering about adding HH or Shearwater electronics to the PRISM more often than the other way around. __________________ Cheers Stefan "It is still a good day if you are on the green side of the grass! Su amigo Roberto!" Sponsor Lou in Race For Life!
(Offline)

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