SMI Prism training

silent running · 12th December 2005, 20:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

ANDY' I do as much travelling as you do and I have yet to pay anything ecer for overweight fees and the way my rig is now, it weighs more than a stock rig..

Hi Joe, I was refering to the YBOD as being too big and heavy for carry on, even without cylinders. A stock Prism minus cylinders will fit most airlines dimensional requirements for carry-on while in a small duffel. And if you have the rig with you, there is no chance someone in the baggage area will drop it from a great height and damage the sensitive parts. And small airports in the middle of nowhere are not known for being kind to heavy bags. Even if my luggage gets lost, I can still dive right off the plane, as long as there are cylinders and sorb.-Andy

***jradomski*** · 12th December 2005, 20:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Maybe you don't undersatnd the PRISM electronics?
Sensors, sensor harness and analog display are all that is needed to fly the unit manually.

I thought you dive a Sport Kiss ...

... it has only one display per cell, no redundancy, correct? Or did you modify it with another display? And is controlled manually?

I don't know how much a spare head costs, never asked.

I never asked that either.
Usually when someone replaces a head, SMI takes the replaced one back. I know of at least one head that the customer kept due to his remote location. If you really want to know either the option or the price, ask SMI.

No didn't mis understand.. 1 secondary display for 3 cells... no redundancy there.. There is a single point of failure.. the display itself...

Kiss 3 independent displays for 3 cells, no single failure point there.. I'd call that redundant..

***jradomski*** · 12th December 2005, 20:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Hi Joe, I was refering to the YBOD as being too big and heavy for carry on, even without cylinders. A stock Prism minus cylinders will fit most airlines dimensional requirements for carry-on while in a small duffel. And if you have the rig with you, there is no chance someone in the baggage area will drop it from a great height and damage the sensitive parts. And small airports in the middle of nowhere are not known for being kind to heavy bags. Even if my luggage gets lost, I can still dive right off the plane, as long as there are cylinders and sorb.-Andy

Actually,
I HAVE had my insp as carry on less the case which went with my luggage and cylinders.. I used to have a very light bracket (it didnt look pretty but it worked)for emergency use that could mount cylinders and the cannister.. I did this once but decided there was other stuff I rather carry with me thats more delicate..

Now that I don't worry about the weight, as long as they dont lose the bag, I go diving.. I dont worry about how far the drop or throw my bag since everything that can get damaged is in a titanium shell...

Now I carry all my electronics and camera gear, the Rebreather is checked..

silent running · 12th December 2005, 20:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

No didn't mis understand.. 1 secondary display for 3 cells... no redundancy there.. There is a single point of failure.. the display itself...

Kiss 3 independent displays for 3 cells, no single failure point there.. I'd call that redundant..

Hi Joe, it's true, that all 3 sensors are in 1 display, but that display is totally potted and has no batteries or amps or 1 ata housings to fail, like on the Kiss displays. Yes it's good to have 3 separate displays, but there is very little that can go wrong with the Prism 2ndry once you are in the water. When my solenoid clogged up last year, I did the last 2 days of my Komodo trip on manual, no power. I was comfortable doing this as it was part of my training to fly the unit manually. I was not going to loose 2 days of an expensive trip due to a lack of "true" redundancy. Did I modify my dive plan to a more consevative profile, yes. But as I have said before, is someone who depends on batteries for their sensor readings an alpinist? Yes, IMHO. But an alpinist is just someone who draws the line in the sand further than the next guy... -Andy

***caveseeker7*** · 12th December 2005, 21:00

What are you trying to say?

:

PRISM has a primary display, the HUD.
It has a secondary display, the analog gauge.
You want a tertiary display?

HH only has two independent ones (HUD repeats of secondary, correct?).
APD doesn't have any independent pO2 monitor, but two dependent setpoint controllers.
Meg has two independent displays (HUD repeats of secondary, correct?).
KISS has three independent displays, but no redundancy for any of them.

Maybe the MK-5p would fit your requirements ...

***jradomski*** · 12th December 2005, 21:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

What are you trying to say?

:

PRISM has a primary display, the HUD.
It has a secondary display, the analog gauge.
You want a tertiary display?

HH only has two independent ones (HUD repeats of secondary, correct?).
APD doesn't have any independent pO2 monitor, but two dependent setpoint controllers.
Meg has two independent displays (HUD HUD repeats of secondary, correct?).
KISS has three independent displays, but no redundancy for any of them.

Maybe the MK-5p would fit your requirements ...

No you said all you need is the secondary to dive.. meaning the primary electronics are dead.. so the secondary has no backup..

I said I wouldn't dive with just a secondary this includes the HH.. there is no redundancy... Its exactly the same concept as the secondary on the prism exceptthat you can viewall the sensors at the same time.. 1 display, 3 sensors.., I wouldnt dive with one INSP controller working.. same thing one display 3 sensors..

I could care less if one has batteries or not... 1 display is 1 display...

I would take 3 seperate displays with 1 cell each over 1 display with 3 cells.. even if one failed I could still read 2 sensors at the same time from 2 independent displays

silent running · 12th December 2005, 21:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Actually,
I HAVE had my insp as carry on less the case which went with my luggage and cylinders.. I used to have a very light bracket (it didnt look pretty but it worked)for emergency use that could mount cylinders and the cannister.. I did this once but decided there was other stuff I rather carry with me thats more delicate..

Now that I don't worry about the weight, as long as they dont lose the bag, I go diving.. I dont worry about how far the drop or throw my bag since everything that can get damaged is in a titanium shell...

Now I carry all my electronics and camera gear, the Rebreather is checked..

Joe, good to know that you found a way to squeeze the YBOD guts in carry-on, you are a handy guy. But I don't think that a stock YBOD is diveable without the case and yours is well beyond stock.-Andy

***jradomski*** · 12th December 2005, 21:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Joe, good to know that you found a way to squeeze the YBOD guts in carry-on, you are a handy guy. But I don't think that a stock YBOD is diveable without the case and yours is well beyond stock.-Andy

At the time this was a stock unit.. I just had my budy make up a simple bracket (out of SS) that the cannister and manifold could mount to in the middle and the cylinders could mount to on the sides..
Its really just the yello/black case thats large.. everything else can fold up quite compactly..

The unit could not stand up on its own but was perfectly diveable..

I should look through my junk in my basement and see If I still have the bracket.. If I find it I'll U/l a pic

***caveseeker7*** · 12th December 2005, 21:19

Thanks for laying that out, Joe.

The 3/3 setup is good to have, especially when it's all you got.
The independent and separate electronic and analog combo of the PRISM
and MK are my preference, that's probably the only thing where we differ.
You prefer lots of features and options, I prefer simplicity.

silent running · 12th December 2005, 21:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I could care less if one has batteries or not... 1 display is 1 display...

I would take 3 seperate displays with 1 cell each over 1 display with 3 cells.. even if one failed I could still read 2 sensors at the same time from 2 independent displays

Hi Joe, about this redundancy thing, I think it's worth considering the ways in which things most likely fail. I don't know of any Prism 2ndrys failing underwater. Why? Because there is really nothing to go wrong, especially when the power is off. I do know of many, many Kiss displays flooding or getting wet enough to not work. I'm not saying that having 3 separate Kiss displays is a bad idea, obviously it works and is a necessary part of the design, which is overall, very safe. But I don't think the "1 display is 1 display" thing takes everything into account.
Remember, there is only one brake pedal in your car, what if the mechanical linkage somehow came apart? You'd crash. And this does happen once in a great while. But not enough to have everybody demanding an emergency pedal be made part of the design. Everything carries risk, there are ones which are acceptable to most people and ones which are not. And of course reasonable people can disagree... -Andy

12th December 2005, 20:46	#21 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) ANDY' I do as much travelling as you do and I have yet to pay anything ecer for overweight fees and the way my rig is now, it weighs more than a stock rig.. Hi Joe, I was refering to the YBOD as being too big and heavy for carry on, even without cylinders. A stock Prism minus cylinders will fit most airlines dimensional requirements for carry-on while in a small duffel. And if you have the rig with you, there is no chance someone in the baggage area will drop it from a great height and damage the sensitive parts. And small airports in the middle of nowhere are not known for being kind to heavy bags. Even if my luggage gets lost, I can still dive right off the plane, as long as there are cylinders and sorb.-Andy
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12th December 2005, 20:47	#22 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,992	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Maybe you don't undersatnd the PRISM electronics? Sensors, sensor harness and analog display are all that is needed to fly the unit manually. I thought you dive a Sport Kiss ... ... it has only one display per cell, no redundancy, correct? Or did you modify it with another display? And is controlled manually? I don't know how much a spare head costs, never asked. I never asked that either. Usually when someone replaces a head, SMI takes the replaced one back. I know of at least one head that the customer kept due to his remote location. If you really want to know either the option or the price, ask SMI. No didn't mis understand.. 1 secondary display for 3 cells... no redundancy there.. There is a single point of failure.. the display itself... Kiss 3 independent displays for 3 cells, no single failure point there.. I'd call that redundant.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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12th December 2005, 20:55	#23 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,992	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Hi Joe, I was refering to the YBOD as being too big and heavy for carry on, even without cylinders. A stock Prism minus cylinders will fit most airlines dimensional requirements for carry-on while in a small duffel. And if you have the rig with you, there is no chance someone in the baggage area will drop it from a great height and damage the sensitive parts. And small airports in the middle of nowhere are not known for being kind to heavy bags. Even if my luggage gets lost, I can still dive right off the plane, as long as there are cylinders and sorb.-Andy Actually, I HAVE had my insp as carry on less the case which went with my luggage and cylinders.. I used to have a very light bracket (it didnt look pretty but it worked)for emergency use that could mount cylinders and the cannister.. I did this once but decided there was other stuff I rather carry with me thats more delicate.. Now that I don't worry about the weight, as long as they dont lose the bag, I go diving.. I dont worry about how far the drop or throw my bag since everything that can get damaged is in a titanium shell... Now I carry all my electronics and camera gear, the Rebreather is checked.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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12th December 2005, 20:59	#24 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) No didn't mis understand.. 1 secondary display for 3 cells... no redundancy there.. There is a single point of failure.. the display itself... Kiss 3 independent displays for 3 cells, no single failure point there.. I'd call that redundant.. Hi Joe, it's true, that all 3 sensors are in 1 display, but that display is totally potted and has no batteries or amps or 1 ata housings to fail, like on the Kiss displays. Yes it's good to have 3 separate displays, but there is very little that can go wrong with the Prism 2ndry once you are in the water. When my solenoid clogged up last year, I did the last 2 days of my Komodo trip on manual, no power. I was comfortable doing this as it was part of my training to fly the unit manually. I was not going to loose 2 days of an expensive trip due to a lack of "true" redundancy. Did I modify my dive plan to a more consevative profile, yes. But as I have said before, is someone who depends on batteries for their sensor readings an alpinist? Yes, IMHO. But an alpinist is just someone who draws the line in the sand further than the next guy... -Andy
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12th December 2005, 21:00	#25 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,496	Re: SMI Prism training What are you trying to say? : PRISM has a primary display, the HUD. It has a secondary display, the analog gauge. You want a tertiary display? HH only has two independent ones (HUD repeats of secondary, correct?). APD doesn't have any independent pO2 monitor, but two dependent setpoint controllers. Meg has two independent displays (HUD repeats of secondary, correct?). KISS has three independent displays, but no redundancy for any of them. Maybe the MK-5p would fit your requirements ... __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!" Last edited by caveseeker7 : 12th December 2005 at 21:03.
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12th December 2005, 21:06	#26 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,992	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) What are you trying to say? : PRISM has a primary display, the HUD. It has a secondary display, the analog gauge. You want a tertiary display? HH only has two independent ones (HUD repeats of secondary, correct?). APD doesn't have any independent pO2 monitor, but two dependent setpoint controllers. Meg has two independent displays (HUD HUD repeats of secondary, correct?). KISS has three independent displays, but no redundancy for any of them. Maybe the MK-5p would fit your requirements ... No you said all you need is the secondary to dive.. meaning the primary electronics are dead.. so the secondary has no backup.. I said I wouldn't dive with just a secondary this includes the HH.. there is no redundancy... Its exactly the same concept as the secondary on the prism exceptthat you can viewall the sensors at the same time.. 1 display, 3 sensors.., I wouldnt dive with one INSP controller working.. same thing one display 3 sensors.. I could care less if one has batteries or not... 1 display is 1 display... I would take 3 seperate displays with 1 cell each over 1 display with 3 cells.. even if one failed I could still read 2 sensors at the same time from 2 independent displays __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 12th December 2005 at 21:09.
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12th December 2005, 21:08	#27 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Actually, I HAVE had my insp as carry on less the case which went with my luggage and cylinders.. I used to have a very light bracket (it didnt look pretty but it worked)for emergency use that could mount cylinders and the cannister.. I did this once but decided there was other stuff I rather carry with me thats more delicate.. Now that I don't worry about the weight, as long as they dont lose the bag, I go diving.. I dont worry about how far the drop or throw my bag since everything that can get damaged is in a titanium shell... Now I carry all my electronics and camera gear, the Rebreather is checked.. Joe, good to know that you found a way to squeeze the YBOD guts in carry-on, you are a handy guy. But I don't think that a stock YBOD is diveable without the case and yours is well beyond stock.-Andy Last edited by jradomski : 12th December 2005 at 21:11. Reason: sorry hit edit instead of quote
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12th December 2005, 21:12	#28 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,992	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Joe, good to know that you found a way to squeeze the YBOD guts in carry-on, you are a handy guy. But I don't think that a stock YBOD is diveable without the case and yours is well beyond stock.-Andy At the time this was a stock unit.. I just had my budy make up a simple bracket (out of SS) that the cannister and manifold could mount to in the middle and the cylinders could mount to on the sides.. Its really just the yello/black case thats large.. everything else can fold up quite compactly.. The unit could not stand up on its own but was perfectly diveable.. I should look through my junk in my basement and see If I still have the bracket.. If I find it I'll U/l a pic __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 12th December 2005 at 21:21.
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12th December 2005, 21:19	#29 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,496	Re: Thanks for laying that out, Joe. The 3/3 setup is good to have, especially when it's all you got. The independent and separate electronic and analog combo of the PRISM and MK are my preference, that's probably the only thing where we differ. You prefer lots of features and options, I prefer simplicity. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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12th December 2005, 21:26	#30 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: SMI Prism training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) I could care less if one has batteries or not... 1 display is 1 display... I would take 3 seperate displays with 1 cell each over 1 display with 3 cells.. even if one failed I could still read 2 sensors at the same time from 2 independent displays Hi Joe, about this redundancy thing, I think it's worth considering the ways in which things most likely fail. I don't know of any Prism 2ndrys failing underwater. Why? Because there is really nothing to go wrong, especially when the power is off. I do know of many, many Kiss displays flooding or getting wet enough to not work. I'm not saying that having 3 separate Kiss displays is a bad idea, obviously it works and is a necessary part of the design, which is overall, very safe. But I don't think the "1 display is 1 display" thing takes everything into account. Remember, there is only one brake pedal in your car, what if the mechanical linkage somehow came apart? You'd crash. And this does happen once in a great while. But not enough to have everybody demanding an emergency pedal be made part of the design. Everything carries risk, there are ones which are acceptable to most people and ones which are not. And of course reasonable people can disagree... -Andy
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