SMI Prism training

Crazyduck

While we all have had a fun jab or two at the production schedule of SMI I would like to take a second to point something out.

While I was in Tennessee for my Intro Class with Luke I saw the level of commitment of work and effort that was taken by Shas and her crew to met the Aussie order.

This included being up at ungodly hours, making most meals for the guest and staff onsite and after dinner taking her tea and going back up to the workshop and doing even more.

This was on top of Luke’s training, meeting with clients, potential clients/students (me) and making sure that everyone had signed everything and paid from down under.

This is on top of making all the parts, flashing electronics, marking every part with a part number for tracking, and answering questions from clients, potential clients, the internet and the phone that never stops ringing.

Since the move to Tennessee they have had to rehab facilities to work in, they have had to repair the civil war era home and educumicated the local UPS delivery guy.

As with any rebreather you are going to need spares and extras. So my question is why did you not spring for extra parts and have a small inventory in-stock since you are on the other side of the world? When we sell machinery to Asian clients they receive parts that are the most likely to fail.

While SMI has incredible product I think we need to remember that rebreathers are essentially hand made products that are designed by incredible intelligent individuals that are selling their product to Joe P. Public. I can see SMI in the near future having the opportunity to ramp up and do more of a full product production but how much would that cost them in capital assets and effect their business model? Besides it would do no one any good if they ramped up x thousand of units per year… would it?

Andrew

Genesis

There's a real issue here with "business model" and reality though.

Would you buy a car if you had no reasonable assurance that you'd be able to get, for instance, a replacement ECU if the one in the vehicle took a crap?

I wouldn't. You probably wouldn't either, because such an event would leave you with a worthless hunk of metal and plastic.

But that is precisely the model that we're being asked to buy into with the currnet Rebreather manufacturers. There is no reasonable assurance that these firms are "going concerns" when delivery lead times are anywhere from months to well north of a YEAR!

You want me to spend $10,000 on something that has proprietary parts in it that I cannot duplicate reasonably or at all, which I'm dependant on, and for which I have no reasonable assurance that the supplier will remain in business producing the device?

No thanks. I'll build first, because that way I know I can reproduce whatever might break.

I'm willing to consider factory-built if and only if I have reasonable assurance that if I need Part "X" at some point it can be stuffed in a FedEx box and to my location in a day or two. At any time in the forseeable lifetime of the product. No ifs, ands or buts.

This means, to me, that I have to be able to buy "off the rack", because that's the only way you can demonstrate to me that the components ARE available immediately if I should need something.

ALL the current Rebreather manufacturers violate this and they get away with it because we, as consumers of these products, allow it. There is no reason it has to be this way, and allowing it not only leaves us in a situation where we can't get what we need when we need it, but also radically drives up the cost of these units because nobody has had an incentive to get proper funding to back mass production of these products.

Both of these problems would go away if we would refuse to "cooperate"....

Crazyduck

Karl,
We need to give you a word limit -DUDE.

In the past we have been very lucky with folks that have helped to service discontinued units. Best example is Kevin at Juergensen Marine. He has done work on MK15.5, and now that includes CIS-Lunar units and other units.

Specifically, the PRISM family has been through a series of generation and has been assisted along in this process by other businesses. At one time or another Mr. Readey has worked for a few businesses and working by himself provides more stability then a major corporations have done in the past. Just look at other rebreathers sometimes they go through multiple corporate supports then they just disappear- poof. You and I both know why you get the product through development and then ask for product insurance and the insurance companies just run from the scene.

Your business model theory- so when they discontinued Oldsmobile and GM offered to do the warranty work for 5 years that makes it any better? Come on there is always an associated risk with doing business with anyone. That includes large corporations to mom and pop shops.

The construction and design of the materials they use would make it very difficult to next to impossible to break certain plastic parts. The secondary display is a very unique and needs to be held and used to see what exactly it is doing. Plus, please keep in mind since the O2 sensors are not amplified that provides a direct read system and so it takes a 9 volt battery to run the onboard solenoid and it runs for a heck of long time on that 9 volt. The electronics head is potted and registered. You can basically burn the head to a crisp destroy it and send it in and they’ll know what unit it went to.

Anything can happen to a business and with the recent RIMM court orders it just goes to show even large businesses can be brought to their knees.

I respect you position Karl and what you are saying about shelving and retaining certain parts but there are the divers we hear from and then those we do not. The funny thing was I was cruising through the web and came across Dynasty Marine. They are using the PRISM units for deep fish collection.

Their website- http://www.dynasty-marine.com/
Pics- http://www.dynastymarine.net/image/techdive1.jpg
http://www.dynastymarine.net/image/techdive4.jpg

Best Regards, Andrew

woody

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your replies, i have had conflicting arguments about this post from all quarters. The Guy selling the one i am looking at has a second hand YBOD now as this is more suitable for his diving (Remote locations) and parts availability. I have been warned off these units by some and encouraged by others. My main objective is to a have a safe reliable easily maintained unit.

I understand that a certain amount of self help is required and care, i would expect to have a set of O rings and spare sensors etc.

I am as confused as to a course of action a i was when i first posted

jradomski

What I think you should be considering is where do you do most of your diving?? is it home or away??
what are you buddies diving??

This should be factored in to your decision.. If you usually dive at home, you can build up a reasonable supply of spares (Rebreather divers should have as complete a set of spares as possible), then the most you'll miss locally is a day of diving..

If you travel alot, are you travelling alone or with the same people??
If they all have similiar rigs, travelling is easier.. If they all have megs, get a meg, if they all have inspirations get one of those same goes for a prism.. If its all mixed, the decision gets harder..

Obviously the most abundent CCR out there is an Inspiration so you'r most likely to find spares you might not be carrying.. But don't discount others because of this either.. Just learn to travel with lots of spares..

I make it a habit of being able to fix or replace most of the things on my rig and help others to do the same... Whn I go on big trips, I even carry a complete set of extra electronics (if its a group at least one of us does).. realistically at the moment, the only rigs you could do that with is an inspiration because a replacement set of electronics (hammerhead) is available, or a KISS since you can get a full set of displays at an affordable price..

There isn't a manufacturer out there that can save your trip (unless its a long one) if you get a major failure with your electronics..
So far the best I have heard is Kevin J. sending out a spare head a while back by express the day he got a request (the diver still lost a few days diving), obviously one cant expect this as normal service....

People are VERY passionate about their rigs and many will trash talk rigs they don't own or dive...

Each rig has their pluses and minuses, you just have to decide which ones are best for you.. If possible get some try dives, and find an instructor that you would like to be trained by.. That also has to be factored into your decision.

__________________
Joe Radomski
CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer
ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10

All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.

Genesis

Joe, why is this considered acceptable?

Not one spare (or however many fail per unit of time to produce new ones) being stocked back for everything in the machine?

I don't get it.....

It may be silly expensive to airfreight some bit or piece, but so is a blown trip that I spent $10k on getting to some out-of-the-way place.

Why do people accept this on a box that costs them $10,000?

caveseeker7

Andrew, thanks for adding some perspective.

Andy, I agree that Rebreather users should have a 'save-the-dive' kit available, just as most divers do. SMI offers it for the PRISM, they'll provide advice individually as to what it should contain based on the diving profiles and locations. I don't know if anyone in Oz bothered to get one, including the importer.

Phi, funny.
Pete moved SMI with his old Mercedes Diesel and a flatbed trailer.
The electronics needed reflashing, finding the problem which was new took a while. It has been done, even on the heads that didn't have appearant problems. Another QC check has been added to avoid it in the future. Other manufacturers have and have had electronics issues, both with hard- and software. It happens, all you can ask for that they're fixed asap.

Joe, I know of at least one case where SMI has shipped a spare head (old and used but working), PRISM spares can be ordered and secondaries cost less than Jetsam's tripple display.

Karl (Genesis, hope I got the name right), ever ordered Morgan parts in the US?
Current wait for an Aston Martin V8 is three years ... even though the company is owned by Ford. Doesn't make it a bad car or a bad company. You don't like it, buy an F-150.

Until the market supports half a dozend or more companies producing rebreathers on the scale that APD does and more (there is a wait for Vision units after all) rebreathers will be a niche within the scuba niche market. It's the nature of things, and has its drawbacks.

Steam Machines has kept a rental fleet of PRISM (and SM1600 earlier) CCRs to bridge the gap between ordering/training and delivery free of charge to waiting customers. On occasion they were made available while units were worked on. Demand has steadly increased and surpassed both production capability and availability of rentals.

The company moved to increase production, reduce overhead and catch up with the demand. Huge move for a small company with limited resources, plenty of rocks and stones (if not boulders) on the way.

They'll work it out eventually, and for most part their customers and even prospective customers trust them to do so. I've known them over two years personally, I've spend hours and hours at SMI (usually every week) during that time. I've seen them go way beyond the call of duty to help customers and non-customers with advice, spares and long, long hours at work. And per cel phone at times I would have been yelling loud enough the phone would have been redundant.

Could SMI improve the biz model, production of units and spares and more?
Yes, but it sure as hell isn't for the lack of trying.

__________________
Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"

silent running

Hi Woody, I'm not sure what the seller of the Prism would regaurd as "remote", but I did almost all of my 310 hrs on the Prism on liveaboards in Papua New Guinea and Komdo. Can't get more remote than that. Brought mine around the world in a small duffel bag in carry-on on big jets and little prop planes. Try that with a YBOD. For that reason alone, I wouldn't want a YBOD for remote, hard to get to places: it's bigger and heavier than a Prism. Never bothered me that I was far away from the factory as anything short of total destruction of the head is fixable in the field. The fact that the head is molded plastic means that epoxy will be able to fix almost any structural mishaps. The electronics are very simple, completely potted, dedicated to maintaining the SP and have no buttons to corrode or handsets to go leaky. There is only a magnetic reed switch for the on and off. It is also very easy to calibrate and mine has never failed to do so.
It sounds to me that your main issue will be where and how to get trained. I would not worry about the reliability/parts issues due to the simplicity of it's design and construction. -Andy

jradomski

I guess that is where we are different.. I wouldn't start a dive if all I had was the secondary.. as much as I hate it I'd go OC.

How affordably could you order a complete spare PRISM electronics Head.. is it Less/equal to $3000?? If so thats good to know.. I wasn't aware that anyone could just order a spare head to have... The HH does offer this as an alternative to INSP users.. INSP owners can (or atleast in the past they were) also able to order a spare head for around the same price as the HH but that in my mind is not as good a deal and I wouldn't do it for that price and didn't mention it..

I knew you said SMI has shipped replacement heads but you never said they did it the same day they requested help or to someone on vacation, I know Kevin did.. I know Kevin routinely ships loaner heads when Hes not sure if there really is a problem or not, but its not the same urgency as something to someone on a trip..

I'm just trying to give the fellow as much to think about and question as I can.. No Rebreather fits everone's needs.


ANDY' I do as much travelling as you do and I have yet to pay anything ever for overweight fees and the way my rig is now, it weighs more than a stock rig..

If I wanted to get it to the same travel weight as a prism, its pretty easy to do, not that I would.... The major additions to weight on the INSP are steel cylinders, APEKS 1sts and the manifold.. replace these and the weight should be damn close.. Get PHI's travel frame and it should be less..
OOps I almost forgot the hose weights, they add a bit as well and really arent necessary..

__________________
Joe Radomski
CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer
ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10

All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.

caveseeker7

Maybe you don't undersatnd the PRISM electronics?
Sensors, sensor harness and analog display are all that is needed to fly the unit manually.

I thought you dive a Sport Kiss ... ... it has only one display per cell, no redundancy, correct? Or did you modify it with another display? And is controlled manually?

I don't know how much a spare head costs, never asked.

I never asked that either.
Usually when someone replaces a head, SMI takes the replaced one back. I know of at least one head that the customer kept due to his remote location. If you really want to know either the option or the price, ask SMI.

__________________
Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"